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Fuck. That was a good match.
telemephoning people to ask them for monies for the university. I got one bloke to tell me what was going on for 20 minutes.
you missed a great match. ah edge of your seat stuff.
mateo scored too, oh dear!
quite fun at times
i was with a massive liverpool fan who is a bit crazy, he shouted, a lot, when they scored, both goals.
oh shit you watched the Chelsea game, sorry
no barce vs liv. yeah...god that was great!
it was great
can't really believe how crap Barcelona were though I'm more than happy with the result
could all 4 premiership clubs go through to the last 8? would be amazing - maybe celtic in there too
watching barcelona fumble about momentarily with the ball was so bad.
and I adore the Champions League. I was at a friends last night watching the ManScum game and playing poker and it seemed as if the proper football was back.
Yeah we did great despite a faltering 30 minutes in the middle of the first half. Good to see Bellamy score. I am constantly surprised how eloquent he is in interviews. Back to Anfield, I can't see us throwing this one away.
...how can one sport inspire such hatred, division and violence? Your stereotypical football fan, that you find on the train, drinking heavily and being rowdy, makes me ashamed that I belong to the same country as them.
Seriously. I don't get it. It's a sport. You wouldn't get such bad sportsmanship in any other sport would you?
sport of the lower class. hence it has built a certain culture.
you probably get the same boorish drunken behaviour at any sport though: i'd far rather watch football than rugby in a pub because football fans tend to not get as drunk and involved.
is more understandable than football violence (and intolerance, intimidation etc) though.
I don't understand at all.
football rivalries are essentially based on post codes?
for example the problem areas of manchester are very much assosciated with the two teams.
(moss side is very very red, cheadle hulme very blue, as far as i remember)
in areas such as Glasgow... where an underlying issue of religion is sparked by football matches...
...I'd imagine the problems in Manchester (which I am not an expert on, I hasten to add) are caused more by the same reasons as the postcode 'wars' in London, where kids are pushed into guarding their perceived territory for numerous reasons relating to alienation, deprivation and a gang mentality. I assume if Hackney had two major football teams and this was the only time when two sets of teenagers came together then it could well spark violence; and be used as an identifier.
So yes, understand football violence as a conflict flash point... but just general abuse based on a team? Don't get it.
the same thing about territoriality, and identity, and the sense of belonging.
football fandom is so deeply ingrained in society that it becomes as prominent a divide as anything geographical.
i don't see why abuse based on team support is any harder to understand than abuse based on post code? it's all about belonging to a certain group and protecting that aggresively.
and animal nature coming into play. But when you're sat in a pub watching your favoured team on the screen, you're just rooting for them...there's nothing wrong with this. At a match when someone throws some form of 'missile' at player that is violence as such is plain wrong...but boo-ing or tuting at a screen is just part of the experience.
the 2 football teams had only a weak rivalry for years. then someone decided to get sectarian violence involved. the religious element didn't come first.
of manchester, now?
generally, north manchester and salford are utd with east and south manchester being city. in practice, this doesn't work at all
i get it mixed up...
i think its called london.
exist without football. This was a great match. No evident violence. You can't make these kind of generalisations.
...I have no idea what match you're talking about and couldn't care less.
All I know is that I am sick and tired of being in situations where I feel threatened, or have to stand by and watch other people being verbally or physically abused because of the football team they support (or are assumed to support).
I am not generalising, I know that the majority of football fans are not violent etc. I'm simply asking how a SPORT can cause such massively deep divisions and ruptures, where it is acceptable for Nottingham Forest supporters to call a bunch of innocent Brighton kids gays or poofs just because they may or may not support the team that Forest were playing that weekend.
than being a SPORT.
it's pretty much the national obsession and is possibly the most prominent aspect of our culture.
I don't believe it should.
To see people getting worked up to violence and intimidation over a game is one of the most ridiculous and sad things that I've witnessed when it comes to human behaviour.
but i think it's more understandable than being worked up about a war a hundred years ago in a way. as in it's a present aspect of culture and stuff.
That was life and death, that's something that should stir the vitriol which is an excusable reason for heightened emotion.
This is people kicking an inflated piece of plastic around a grassy area. It's people using it as an excuse to return to their base level of animal behaviour, which makes them barely human. It makes me actually feel ill to think that people can use this as a reason to behave in this way.
as in a war one hundred years ago is far less affecting than an aspect of our culture that is prominent every single day.
doesn't mean that it should have that effect on people.
You don't see people fighting in the streets over whether Jordan was right to get breast implants.
It's. A. Fucking. Game.
By all means get emotional about it. By all means follow your team the length and breadth of the country. But it's a game. No-one dies (well no-one should) as a consequence of the result of the game.
To act in a violent or intimidating manner over such a thing is to act with no single strand of rationality. And when we do this, it makes us no different from any other members of the animal kingdom.
it's a social grouping as important as a tribe or any other gang. and it encourages the same mentality.
i'm not condoning it, but i've always had something of an issue with us trying to set ourselves apart from other animals in this way.
we still have those characteristics however much we choose to hide them. we have to have a sense of belonging and have a certain pack mentality that always gets expressed.
dis is a pack mentality, and our almost universal hatred of scene emo kinds is exactly the same but less extreme because that sub culture is far far less promininent and all encompassing.
of people who chose to support the same club based on where they're born (or who their parents supported etc). So people who support Newcastle will have a hatred of people from Sunderland for this reason.
How different is this from people saying "Well, I was born in England so I hate all French people"? It's not. And it's irrational as the hatred is based on location of birth which isn't a choice of your own.
At least with DiS, we've made a conscious and (mostly) educated decision over which music we like and we can back this up with arguments over the merits of our choices.
How can you say that you support Man Utd for a better reason that someone supports Stockport? You can't.
but i think that the emotions around a football match are real and of the present, whereas any rivalry with france is historical and therefore less justifiable.
in my opinion.
both are silly, but i find football more understandable as a source for a rivalry.
"So people who support Newcastle will have a hatred of people from Sunderland for this reason."
come on, football rivalries don't work like this and they only manifest themselves in violence amongst the lunatics.
What gives football fans a right to drag me into their obsession and intimidate me based upon something I don't care about?
I'm not attacking football, or it's validity as a sport, a passion or an obsession. I don't see how you can all be defending senseless, intolerant, irrational, organised, gang violence and mentality.
If it was a nationalist fueled violence, or a religious fueled one, or any other number is 'isms' violence of a similar emotional nature could stem from, I doubt anybody would be saying 'Oh! but it's part of our culture!'
you said you didn't understand it. what i'm saying is that football in this county IS more important to more people than religion and is inately linked to a sense of very localised nationalism.
At one (brief) point Nazism was ingrained into German culture.
Did that make it okay?
seriously, though .. the people who may have intimidate fiona would have done so anyway. and if they didn't have football they'd get violent over something else.
Much more succinctly put than me.
i just think you have to accept that football in this country goes far beyond being just a game.
it IS a way of life.
i'm not defending that at all.
"I'm simply asking how a SPORT can cause such massively deep divisions and ruptures,"
and i'm explaining how.
ARE generalising such fans. You have a problem with a few people you saw. They happened to be going to a football match. This is tired thinking, really.
who happened to be my example, must be the reason for such enormous police turnouts on the underground on certain match days, and the reason fans are funneled through different tube routes and entrances...
..you wouldn't get tennis fans needing a police escort would you?
aren't as many of them.
nor is it based on geographically located urban-living supporter groups who do close physical battle with each other over a pre-defined time length
there's really no comparison
isn't on the same scale in terms of numbers.
What about the violence and crime at Reading festival, for example? Why are there so many police there? Because music fans are innately violent or because this kind of thing is inevitable when you put thousands of people together in a confined space?
you would get rugby.
but it would be no fun without the banter and the general rivalry. You need a bit of a laugh and a joke. When it gets to abuse and violence, count me out.
Even though I don't understand what they're on about, it's wonderful when my friends pick on each other about their teams performance; but that's obviously not what I'm referring to.
It's kinda important to remember that it's not 'just a sport' or 'men kicking a ball around a grassy area'
You have to take into the consideration the passion, loyalty, anxiety, loathing, excitement, pain etc that goes with it. Football fans (for the most part) devote a hell of a lot of emotion and time into their team, and so it goes beyond simply watching 22 blokes kicking a ball around for an hour and a half. It doesn't just stop when the final whistle blows and starts again next Saturday at three o'clock
I said it before to Lottie, but for football fans their team is one of the only things that they can guarantee that will mean something to them for the rest of their lives. How many people fall out of love with football? Hardly any. When I'm old, grey and hopefully senile I'll still be looking out for the Arsenal result twice a week. There's something pretty awesome about that
But then you get violent twats because... well, because they're twats. A large section of our (predominantly male) society are into football, and you will obviously get some shits in amongst them. It's dying out though, and pretty rapidly (over here at least)
the "22 men kicking a bit of leather round" definition is just idiotic. music is just "4 people hitting some strings and banging some bits of leather with sticks" or whatever but this clearly ignores the whole point.
...is that ultimately, these football fans have the SAME passion, the same interest, the same rollercoaster of emotions that comes with supporting a team, the same dedication, the same goals, etc etc.
Whereas, at least things like nationalism and religion, are largely mutually exclusive.
I understand that every team can't win, but surely that's part of it? That's the fun bit? The fact that you stick by your team through thick and thin... I mean... do violent football fans want everyone to support their team, or 'ethnically' cleanse those that don't? It's ridiculous.
And it makes me sad and angry and all those things. I'm kind of running out of words to eloquently express the extent to which, no matter how much I read on the theory, and no matter how good my grasp on theories of identity etc. that I just cannot understand violence based purely on a sport.
I think we'd all agree that violence based upon musical taste, or assumed musical identity, which many of us have probably been subject of at some point, is just as horrifically perplexing and unacceptable.
and only one religion can "win"
i think that ALL violence is perplexing and unacceptable and that you can't seperate football and suggest it's less trivial. because to an awful lot of people it isn't.
it might be less "serious" than religion, but to a lot of people it's far more real.
...because you have to have other teams for your team to play... the idea of multiple teams is fundamental to a two-sided sport!
Whereas, in most religions definition, only one is the correct one, there is no interplay.
they are merely incidental catalysts - in the case of football it has historically been a catalyst around which fighting males group together - it's unfortunate but it IS changing - the 'terraces' are no longer such a safe haven for neanderthals
somewhere, that I can understand it as a catalyst situation or conflict flashpoint...
...hmm. I don't really know where I'm going with this anymore.
that the dangerous cocktail of alcohol and testosterone when coupled with the dangerous cocktail of intolerance and frustration makes a potent brew
especially when shared en masse
to ensure racial harmony :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHklhgRJKQ4
(this was an actual bbc wales advert from a few years ago)
is that people are cunts. They use football as an excuse for violence. If it was not football it would be something else.
is still RUBBISH
football does not make them animals, they already have it in them, these people dont just fight or abuse people over football, im sure they dont need a reason
people equally will fight people based on geography, social class etc.
there's a reason why i would never go into my local pub. i'd be safer as a city fan, frankly.
this is the truest thing posted on here so far.
it is just violent people hiding behind football. They would be violent people if football didn't exist. Football is just a very good cover for violent behaviour - drinking, often hard to identify people. And it is getting far better. Think of the organisation of the Chelsea Headhunters. There are no longer the arranged meet ups on wasteland to kick the Henrys out of each other, thankfully. Football hooliganism was and is treated very seriously and has been largely removed, at least on a large scale.
There are also violent people who use religion or politics as a shield.
Great win for Liverpool though. Instant kneejerk reaction without being overly realisitic: another European Cup on the way.
but football provides an outlet for their violence. If football didn't exist, they would find another outlet.
impossible to prove, though. in order to demonstrate it, you'd have to uninvent football and see if they started getting violent for different reasons...
was to QPR Ipswich when I was 14. The guy sat behind me was sick all down my back, and some Ipswich fan in the adjacent stand spent the whole game pointing at me and making slit throat gestures shouting "I'M GONNA FUCKING KILL YOU!" at me (obviously I couldn't hear him, but that was what his mouth was saying). On the way out me dad got hit on the head because a fight broke out and he was trying to shepherd me through.
A few years later, a friend took me to see London Irish Harlequins in the rugby. It's a massive derby with a long history (LI are the working class club, Harlequins the club of the middle classes) but I was sat next to a Quins fan the whole way through. We had some banter, and then at the end of the game he bought me a drink. It's like this almost every week (except that time a 6 year Sale fan was sat in front of me and went SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALE continously for 80 mins, god I could've slapped him!).
Now, not wanting to generalise (after all, Franklin's Gardens is more intimidating and horribel than any football game I've ever been to) I just don't understand why rugby fans (on the whole) seem to understand there's a line you don't cross and a large amount of football fans just go mental all the time. I mean, I live in Fulham, and on Chelsea match days the toilets in the tube station are litterally splattered with blood. For me, it just doesn't compute.