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I thought if you'd been poisoned you'd die a bit quicker than that... I don't know how these things work!
Cold War II anyone?
i'd rather fight, to be honest
I don't see the point in covert warfare.
...and shoot me down swiftly if necessary, but isn't it fair enough to like, poison spies?
I mean, are you just supposed to politely ask them to stop looking through all of your secret information?
Force/poisoning etc seems like the natural response, no?
It's not impossible i'm missing a massive point...
of accusing putin of being a sexpervert online, after having worked for the russian secret service.
the man was brave, if nothing else.
The massive point is that he was working to put an end to the dishonest and corrupt autocracy that under Putin, Russia is regressing into. I suppose yeah, fair enough, you could look at it from a relativist viewpoint, but this is essentially how I see it.
and by that standard Blair would be justified in killing journalists who were trying to uncover Government secrets...
there's a motive.
seems like a poor excuse to me
he was investigating her death, started getting threats, moved to london to hide.
isn't that what happened? i think it is. WHO KNOWS.
that isn't true at all. he has been in the UK since 2000 when he was granted political asylum.
this really bothers me. anyone who has only got information about him from the british press is likely to be totally wrong about this.
personally, i would replace 'putin' with 'blair' and 'russia' with 'britain'... but that's just me. there's no doubt that russia is getting up to some very dodgy crap - what about that british guy who almost got done over bugged rocks, or whatever it was?
Last time I checked, Blair didn't order David Arronovich's death and didn't send David Cameron for 8 years hard labour in the Shetland purely for disgreeing with him.
but dishonest autocracy... god, working for the NHS is crap.
Not that bad. When I worked for the NHS, I saw a lot of corpses. They're sweet. Like babies. Big dead babies.
Last time i checked vladimir putin didn't order the death of politskovskaya either.
hahahaha. are you taking the piss?
anyone who associates with boris berzovsky is not an honourable man. sorry
i don't know if it was reported over here, but last week a suspected russian spy was arrested in canada.
not at all
it was a british ex-spy in russia.
more so the amount of media attention that has been paid to it. The Russian government have been assassinating journalists and anybody that speaks out against them for years. It is a sorry situation that it has taken for it to happen in London - and coinciding with the release of a Bond film - to bring this to the publics attention
...that it coincides with Bond
It must all seem terribly glamorous for the press right now, mustn't it?
...i don't know a lot about being a spy, but i imagine it's a bloody nightmare.
Spies are sort of traditionally 'cool', in the same way that gangsters are, possibly/probably because of films, whereas being either probably just involves continual death dicing
is NOTHING like James Bond.
And it probably doesn't involve dicing with death anymore. It did though, particularly if they were based in the USSR
But that is a fact of life.
anna politkovskaya's death got a lot of attention - that all unfolded in russia.
the thing with the ukranian presedential elections two years ago - well documented by worldwide press.
geography doesn't have a lot to do with it.
And it was on the front page of the tabloids every day for a week, was it? I'm not trying to sound confrontational but this is something about the press (and human nature, regrettably) that really upsets me. Geography has a lot to do with it
and i don't remember if it was - probably proof that we were and it wasn't.
but i'm pretty skeptical as to whether the Bond thing actually make a difference. i think you may be reading into things a bit too much.
and i'm pretty sure the ukranian presidential election poisoning got plenty of front-page coverage.
oh i don't know. i'm tired. goodnight.
it looks like I'm reading too much into it. But it's equally easy for me to say that to discredit it is to be terribly naive. Obviously this is a big news story, regardless. Russian spy gets poisoned in London restaurant. Of course that's a story. But I am certain that the Bond link has added to the intrigue/glamour to the story, without doubt
teach em a lesson for not farting in our general direction. Gas etc
I know this story has no merit
"The Russian government have been assassinating journalists and anybody that speaks out against them for years"
well, how about his connections to the chechen mafia?
not = to proving anyone who associates with him is.
if you want to bring down putin, he's probably a good contact to have.
my point is that putin + berezovsky and his mates are as bad as each other.
if you think that putin has order the killing of litvinenko, you'll have to explain to me why he'd go to the trouble and cause all this controversy in order to liquidate someone so utterly irrelevant.
come on. you seem to only argue what you want to argue, without actually reading any of my points. you were doing this to that bloke on the public school thread as well. get it sorted.
my point is that if litvinenko wanted to bring down putin, he would associate with figures such as berezovsky. from here the debate gets onto whether one thinks a wish to bring down governments that are known to be corrupt is 'bad'. you might do, i might not. and from there, we'd have to agree to disagree.
i do agree with your second point. his death is bizarre. it's much more likely that someone in the russian secret service had something personal against him: if a killing this public happened on the orders of top, top brass, it's a moronic move and the last thing putin wants after the politovskaya controversy.
litvinenko was using berezovsky. in this instance, i suspect berezovsky is using litvinenko to discredit putin.
it may well be the result of an internal dispute within the FSB. It may be one of Romano Prodi's mates taking out one of the few people who knew of his KGB ties. It may be because Litvinenko was one of the few people who knew that Al-Zawahiri used a base in Dagestan to train al-qaeda terrorists in the late 90s.
either way, putin hasn't done this to crush dissent. nor is litvinenko a 'freedom fighter', as the british press have so thoughtlessly characterised him.
is an interesting read. a very interesting read.
funny how people, myself included, are too quick to take what's offered them, in terms of explanation - which i guess is your central point in this thread, and i'll happily concede that.
it could even be that one of putin's other detractors took out litvinenko in order to make putin look dodgy, and that litvinenko's embarrassing public criticism of putin was an inconvenience and an annoyance to people who had more serious ways of causing putin political damage. we will never know.
awful, and a bit scary to be honest
around accusations, you should read the only good article to have ever appeared in the independent
damn good article.
"The murder of an already sidelined journalist was arguably the last thing that Putin needed."
I really don't know if I buy this. Certainly international opinion isn't hot to trot on this one, but in terms of keeping internal order under what pretty much everything I read is becoming an increasingly authoritarian regime, killing marginalised journalists can have an effect. They didn't keep Communism going for 20 odd years after it became clear that economicaly it wasn't working by allowing dissent.
The bit about the Russian MP who told lies is nice to, one guy made some stuff up so anyone talking about this kinda thing must be talking nonsense.
Obviously though if you happen to be an ex kgb agent who's had a go at your former boss(es) and colleagues whilst hanging around with incredibly rich and potentially fairly powerful people, the number of people who might want to kill you could be pretty high.
Did they ever find out if the poison was radioactive? I loved that idea, "Hey wait, are you sure this'll kill him?" "Well it should do" "I'm not convinced, let's make it radioactive, just in case"
"killing marginalised journalists can have an effect"
but we're constantly told about how russia has no free press. this means that politskovskaya had no influence in that country. the only place she was significant was in Western Europe where everyone hates Putin anyway .... a total irrelevance.
"Did they ever find out if the poison was radioactive?"
changed their minds after one day
do you want me to punch you in the crotch?
HIMSELF? And it doesn't look like there was any radioactive poison. All the doctors are baffled. Apart from the highly politicised Dr John Henry, 'toxicologist' and good friend of Victor Yuschenko.
Oh, and *punch*
to nicer people...
can't say anymore.
this landed in my inbox yesterday.
Date: Thurs, Nov 23 2006 5:16 pm
Email: "Valentin" <valzo...@yahoo.com>
Not yet rated
Reply | Forward | Print | | Show original |
Here is a few highlights from our upcoming essay on Litvinenko affair.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, it turns out that Mr. Goldfarb was also
present at the meeting between Litvinenko, Mr Lugovoy, and "Vladimir"
on November 1. Incidentally, Mr. Goldfard has a PhD in organic
chemistry and is tenured professor in Columbia, "liberal" university
with a weakness to people with Mr. Goldfarb's political biographies and
Since 1975 when he emigrated to Israel, Mr. Goldfarb lived in Germany
and later in the US.
He has been a close associate of Berezovsky since 1995 and at one time
was at the helm of the Soros Foundation (never ever to be connected to
the CIA contrary to some sophomoric claims!) in Russia and
Berezovsky's Civil Liberty Foundation. His comings and goings are
vague but may present substantial interest for research. Suffice it to
say, that it was Mr. Goldfarb who persuaded Mr. Soros to cretae a
multi-million dollar program of "supporting" Russian scientists, as the
result of which the US labs received for pennies the enormours source
of advanced scientific knowledge, including military related.
Leaving aside their ideological differences, Mr. Goldfarb and
burtsev.ru have one ruling passion: both are hooked up on the story of
1999 Moscow explosions, though they approach it from very different
perspective. It is in the process of our research of this tragic event
and its socal-political and informational context that burtsev.ru had
established Mr. Goldfarb's close ties with one Anton Viktorovich
Surikov, a name well-known to the Western security crowd and experts on
international narcotraffiking in the 1990s. Some potentially relevent
facts about th emultifaceted personality of Mr. Surikov re the present
situation in London include his mentoring of Shamil and Shirvani
Basaevs in the early 1990s, his live-time partnership with the
comrade-in-arms Mr. Ruslan Saidov, another mentor of the above Chechen
gentlemen, who worked as instructor in Khattab's training camps in
Chechnya and took part in the 1999 invasion, and last not least,
Surikov's difficult friendship with Mr. Fritz Ermarth (see , formerly
of the CIA, NSC, and NIC, since 1995. Mr. Ermarth, who had chosen to
keep low profile after the recent publication of Dr. Peter Dale Scott's
essay on the "meta-group" and a flurry of publications in Russian press
about his affiliations with it, had dutifully resurfaced yesterday to
give his opinion on Litvinenko's affair to the newspaper Kommersant.
According to Mr. Surikov's article in 2002, Ermarth, after his
"retirement" from the CIA, handles Mr. Berezovsky and was the
inspirational force behind a number of PR events attributed Berezovsky
and financed by him.
According to a number of sources, the international society to which
Mr. Surikov belongs includes one Valery Lunev, a naturalized citizen of
the Netherlands and a former GRU Colonel, whose area of professional
concentration is alleged to be eliminating people by a variety of
methods that look like natural causes.
ZY: On Surikov and Ermarth, see
http://left.ru/2005/15/referendum132.phtml, this material contains some
rare photos. I am sure that a number of list members won't need help
identifying most of the personages on them. On Mr. Lunev, our dossier
it's all well interesting this.
people from my work are going to london to help with the whole business.
radiation protection division.
what do you do? i do stuff in public health - research and analysis and that, not for HPA but I use your data. Blah... anyway does that offer a big clue as to what killed him? I thought they ruled out thallium?
they've no other ideas, basically.
but if they're getting radiation protection people in they can't have ruled out a radioactive substance, presumably? Admittedly I know nothing about the chemistry/physics involved in this.
but the consultant at the UCL hospital said it was unlikely.
but if you read anything from Dr John Henry, discount it. It's politicised hackwork of the worst kind.
i already do discount what dr henry says, it's just that if the HPA radioactive protection team are involved, then a radioactive substance/radiation source hasn't been ruled out. even if thallium has, which presumably is the obvious one (I have no idea about what means exist to give someone radiation poisoning, but I assume they are varied)
I just don't buy the whole thing. This guy was a KGB agent, and now spews out rhetoric against the 'evil' KGB. allegiences don't just fade like that.
and Russia and portrayed Litvinenko as an heroic freedom fighter. there is no evidence implicating putin at all.
additionally, i don't even think i believe litvinenko was a KGB agent ... i think he used to guard detainees and not a lot else.
there's something a bit darker and deeper under the surface, has to be.
of course there is.
i know. to be honest, i think litvinenko is pretty irrelevant and i wouldn't rule out that berezovsky arranged for his poisoning to discredit putin and boost his own profile. berezovsky has publically stated his intention to overthrow the current Russian government. He might just be a twat, of course.
what do you think about the Gerard Batten explanation?
possibly, say the bbc. whatever that is - presumably similar to thallium. so definitely poisoned, then, i suppose - in case that was still in any doubt.
that's what the people from my centre are looking for.
my boss is on tv. he's talking a load of stuff that is either common sense or available on HPA website.
in short, don't worry, you have to have ingested the chemical to be in danger. if it were on the floor it wouldn't fuck you up at all.
it's somewhere between laziness and ignorance.
It's clear the people who met him the day he died are the key and are not as clean as the press is portraying them. From what I understand, Goldfarb hasn't spoke about being at the meeting which is infinitely suspicious. That he has a list of the appraent "hithist" acquired by Scaramella, that there was a man at the meeting with connections to a man seen as immoral and unethical by most Russians and with ambitions of power, that Scaramella recieved this list without explaining it, that Goldfarb has said Lugoyoy (sp?) wasn't a "friend...
It runs really deep this, I wouldn't rule out Prodi and Berezovsky both with knowledge of this. I am completely certain Putin isn't behind it, however.
Some pieces of interest:
Interview with Goldfarb:
AP publish more quotes
what about mendacity? but otherwise, your post is about right. i'm wary of making any judgements beyond the ones you have made.
yes, i'll give you that one as well.
untimely thoughts, do you?
i usually just google every name connected to these kind of things, google names connected to them, and so on, until the tabs on my Firefox window are too small to click on.
i'll have a look at it now though!
group thing for academics, researchers and journalists about russian politics. you'll not find it on google .... you just seemed to know a bit of detail there, that's all.
is it connected to this in any way?
Goldfarb strikes me as filthy in this, I'll wait to see if it unfolds differently however.
but that website is never updated anymore ... the list is much better because it has people like anatol lieven and dale herspring on it. i'm so out of my depth it hurts.
but yeah, i'm the same as you - i intend to wait a few weeks before coming to any concrete conlusions.
I might vote for this.