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another masterstroke from the government!
*runs to the shops with big ol' overcoat*
stealing video games, but one day he'll be a grown man stealing stadiums and...quarries."
or 4 big trucks full of dynamite? or the rarest animal in Bristol Zoo?
what's the point in sticking a shoplifter in jail?
it merely increases the number of british jails being stolen every year
Whilst in jail they can hook up with other shoplifters and with a few months hard work and support, can gain their NVQ in Armed Robbery with a City and Guilds accredited Diploma in Heroin Addiction.
i hate this site at times!
no, it's a serious bloody question. what is the virtue of jailing a shoplifter?
makes you feel better?
seriously though, it costs something like 30k a year to put somebody in prison and it doesn't have a large enough impact on future behaviour for it to warrant that sort of cost.
Reasons for not putting shoplifters in prison:
- It's bloody expensive
- It won't change their behaviour for the better
- In fact it'll probably make them worse
- Shoplifters are mostly not dangerous offenders
- Prisons are stupidly overcrowded anyway
Give them a fine and if they carry on, give them community service. More likely to "work", way cheaper, avoids crowding prisons, and forces offenders to do something constructive.
shoplifters not to face prison sentences.
Basically, just read Smileadelic's post but imagine my name at the bottom of it.
electronically tag them and use the 30,000 pounds to subsidise employment for them somewhere.
behaviour is a mixture of habits and heuristics anyway
but a big majority of shoplifters do so to earn money to fund drug/alcohol habits so there needs to be some kind of rehabilitation program and ongoing support also.
Nah. The majority of shoplifters are opportunistic kids.
And yes, rehabilitation is important. But better done in a caring environment outside of prison.
are you actually aware of any data on that? my hunch is that it's a significant minority, but i'm not certain.
and, thanks to the innavigable nature of the Home Office website, I can't find the figures right this minute.
I'm pretty confident though - the Youth Lifestyle Surveys highlight the opportunistic nature of the majority of property crime amongst young people, and I'm more or less certain the majority of thefts from commercial premises are carried out by people under 18.
Well you must admit, all that tax money wasted on a comparitively minor offense. Jail should be for people who need to be segregated from the rest of the community for that community's safety.
Shoplifters could be adequated made to make restitution by horsewhipping them in the town square - see how they like lifting then.
in Superdrug last week, it was hilarious. I doubt it's the first thing he's shoplifted and it won't be the last. But prison for bog roll? or razor blades? or wotsits? or a frozen chicken? That would be silly.
We should send them to Australia
Let's requisition one of the more pointless corners of the empire like the Cayman Islands or Tonga, clear everyone out of it into Canada, and then send all our shop lifters there instead. Think of the TV
it's all to do with prisoner gratification.
job in a clothes shop and this kid would come in every week and teal something...he accostd her a few times when she saw him and it got to the point where he was waiting outside saying if she dared to alert someone there would be consequences etc. it made her ill...she was only about 16 at the time and she ended up packing the job in
of course this whole issue was not forgotten by me and was put right when i finally caught up with him
and i'm sure you felt alot better but he won't have stopped shoplifting
Maybe not, but it'll be a lesson learned for him: "Threatening people with 'consequences' sometimes incurs consequences on yourself."
way...he wouldnt dare so much as look at my sister again
you're the BIG man!
Yeah, I guess that's why it worked so well.
so what? he'll go and victimise some other girl whose big brother doesn't have the same problems with self-aggrandisement and machismo
even writing that down
my sister comes home every saturday in tears and i am supposed to do what?
illegal, of course.
the rule of law intact and not encourage vigilantism.
While I agree in principle - it didn't seem to help that fella who got shot the other day, did it?
Sometimes you just have to punch a guy in the dick. It may not be big, clever, or legal, but it's either that or stand by and watch bad things happen to good people.
then you have a legitimate claim to public defence and you may not even be considered worthy of prosecution.
That's a distinct scenario from beating someone up in place of legitimate action.
How I would feel about something that happened to anybody's sister is not relevant to whether or not taking the law into your own hands is right.
how about calling the police?
"Hello? Yes, some guy threatened to beat up my sister. Did he actually do it? No, but-- yes I'll hold... hello? Hello? Motherfu--"
is taken very seriously by the police.
I know this is bollocks.
People threatened to kill my brother and his gf, threw bricks threw windows 8 or 9 people surrounded the house. police knew what was happening. how long did they take to turn up? nearly two hours. one car and a fuck you attitude. when they had called them before they had turned up the person on the phone had a go at them.
you have deduced that a general statement about the police force is universally untrue? Okay...
I know the police can be unhelpful but in general, threatening behaviour - especially towards groups like young girls, rightly or wrongly - is regarded very seriously.
I'm sure it's regarded pretty seriously in principal, but we've all heard stories about Police not bothering to turn up to incidents until hours after they've concluded and even then not doing very much at all about it. I'm sure it's mostly down to lack of resources and so on, but that's not to say that it doesn't happen far more often than it should do.
The story I detail further down in this thread is more proof of this - the guy it concerns actually did get caught by the cops. However, I found later he'd been released without charge and didn't even pay for the door he kicked in, due to all his money having been spent on hard drugs. That to me doesn't represent justice.
"Principal" should read "Principle". My most loathed of typos.
and what would you do with him?
Hypothetically, that depends on the situation. Obviously I would prefer not to visit violence on anyone.
In reality - I beat him up, shut the door on him, he spent a few minutes kicking it in before running off when it became apparent the cops were on their way. I never heard from him again. I would've preferred he paid for the door and that would be the end of it - my mistake was telling this to the officer taking my statement who evidently thought that meant "release junkie back into community without repucussions".
i received a death threat over the phone and the police arrested the guy. you're justifying the general with the particular - it's ugly. don't do it.
I just wanted to see a fight
on this board. i really dont share the same views or lead the same lifestyle as most of the people on here. classic example is the post above where i have stuck up for a family member and someone accuses me of having 'problems with machismo'...ha ha.
its been nice talking and i have met one or two people i generally adore so its been worth it
have a nice time folks
whether someone agrees with you or not. The fact we can discuss it is a good thing.
The stupid momo.
^he thinks you're the messiah!
you should probably revert to your TobyMasters pseudonym.
attention to it then!
Stupid momo, slicky.
I'll say it in a PM too. That'll show her.
If you aren't I'm going to steal your toilet roll
Tuco, I don't think you have a problem with machismo because you stuck up for a familiar member. Just because you take a bizarre pleasure in reporting it to the world. It doesn't reflect well.
First that this is a particular shoplifter and that as this counts as 'aggrivation' this shoplifter WOULD go to jail (if you read the details of this). But as one instance it does not mean as a whole shoplifters are all like that and should go to jail.
Secondly that violence being met with violence simply enforces that view that the strong SHOULD prey on the weak, that this is the natural order. Which is a wrong way of thinking.
Clearly this was upsetting to you but you've come across as a thug from way you've written it and as someone who hasn't necessarily made a positive differnce to society.
And I don't know if you are a thug. I'm just saying that's why you got the reaction you did. It read badly.
The only thug was the guy who continually made threats to a 16 year old girl for doing her job.
And I don't mind it when thugs get their comeuppance.
using violence as a means to solve a problem is 'thuggish', surely?
Well that's my view.
But that was also what I meant when I said it made him sound like a thug.
Mine as well. Sometimes circumstances call for being a thug.
One time some dude gatecrashed a party we were having in our flat on the pretext of being a friend of someone there. In view of him becoming belligerently lecherous towards the some of the ladies present it was decided to eject him from the premises not long after his arrival. He of course thought this was a poor idea and resisted violently to attempts to push him out the door.
So I beat him right there on the street and went back inside.
Now this may have been illegal and thuggish, but you'd have a hard time of it persuading me that it was wrong.
It later transpired that he was a heroin addict - not that that should make a difference.
this thread started with Tuco saying that it was ridiculous for the govt. to propose not jailing shoplifters.
his rationale? his sister was once victimised by a cunt so he beat him up.
what you do to protect your little sister is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to formulating government policy.
not reply to this to be honest, which goes again my 'this is my last post comment'...but
when in this post did i say it was 'ridiculous' for the govt not to jail shoplifters? and when did i say i beat someone up????
I knew you couldn't keep away.
"another masterstroke from the government!"
assumed it was sarcasm.
true, you never said you beat anyone up but the use or threat of violence was implicit. i'm happy to be corrected on that.
i don't want anyone to leave. i've agreed with tuco on things in the past and i'm sure he's perfectly reasonable. just v. different to me, i suppose.
to argue with anyone but sometimes on this board i get tossed off with the comments people make regarding criminals. i totally agree...its a waste of time putting anyone in prison for a shoplifting offence...but if they keep doing it knowing that no matter how much they keep doing it...where is the sense in that? Almost every argument i have had on this board is from someone saying that thieves, vandals, peadophiles, bullies and every other type of criminal that makes other peoples lives a misery...shouldnt be dealt with in a way where they get to suffer. Its all i seem to hear these days.
Regarding the bloke that threatened my sister or anyone that threatens my family....I know greeting violence with violence is not the way forward but i am sorry, i am not going to sit back and let someone walk all over me or my family. The shop my sister worked for called the police on numerous occasions which did absolutely nothing,just like the kid from my estate that stole peoples cars all through his teens and was continually allowed to walk the streets again and again and again. He ruined peoples property for years and years, property they had worked hard for. Then he stole a car, crashed into a family on their way to the airport to go on a family holiday and killed two of them. Where is the sense in that? If he was locked up in the first instance, two innocent people could have lived.
Is that the authorities don't care about petit crime. No one cares that youths stand on the street with the sole purpose of imnsulting people that walk past, no one even bothers reporting phone thefts or muggings because they know nothing will come of it it's just stupid. As said above about the police turning up hours afterwards, this happened after someone had attempted to steal my car. They said on their patrols they would look out for the two thugs (not actually actively look for them) and when phoned the next day said "We can come round and fingerprint the car etc, but it probably will come to nothing. Do you still want us to come round?" My last car was stolen in January and has not been found or anyone prosecuted.
point but some of the people on here take moral high ground and start quoting stats on how jail or punishment wont help and these people should be treated with therapy and sympathy. this is why the fuckers contnually do it as they know they wont get jail. like it or not thats the truth. this country fucks the honest working man up the arse...you dont get fuck all for playing by the rules. You get made redundant and try to claim benefits and the social will treat you like a criminal, hound you until you get a job.Alternatively, you dont work since you left school, sit around selling weed and thieving and leave you the fuck alone. Dont anybody quote any bullshit stats to me on this as i have seen it done time and time again
I think you may be misreading some of the comments in this thread.
At bottom, everybody here shares the same objective. Nobody wants crime and we would all like it to stop. Should offenders be treated with “sympathy”? I’ve certainly never said that, as by and large it’s not an opinion I hold. Certainly I have advocated therapy for offenders with addiction problems. But if their addiction is the root cause of their offending, then killing that is clearly the best way to get them to stop.
And as for people knowing they won’t be imprisoned… well, you’ve expressed your dislike for “bullshit stats”, so I won’t quote any here. Suffice to say that offenders are currently imprisoned more frequently and for longer periods than at any other point in British history. As for the psychology of offending – I know less about this in general (not an awful lot is known about it, actually), but as a rule, punishment – particularly the type / severity of punishment – does not seem to have much of a deterrent effect. To borrow your phrase, “like it or not, that’s the truth”.
On the point of serial “sub-criminal” behaviour – or “anti-social behaviour” as we call it these days – addressed by breadfan, there is a degree of truth in what you say. Certainly our criminal justice process has traditionally been geared towards specific criminal "episodes" and has had trouble adapting itself to these forms of offending. But I’d invite you to consider two points nonetheless. The first is that this is by no means a new form of offending, so it is puzzling that it should only have become such a crucial policy issue in the last few years. And the second is that, actually, a lot of public authorities (not necessarily the police) would be rightly offended by the suggestion that they don’t care about it – especially given the large volume of flagship government legislation on the matter since 1998, which has reformed the system radically and brought in many new agencies to help deal with the problem.
the thief should have to pay back what he / she stole. and jail doesn't really do that. if they don't have any money, they should have to do community work cleaning up graffiti and things like that.
But surely his shop-lifting wasn't the real problem so much as his threatening your sister?
When it says "shoplifters won't go to jail2 that probably excludes those who commit other offences within the act of shoplifting.
and deserve to be punished.
taking threatening behaviour seriously: downstairs neighbour/petty criminal kicks the door to my flat in at 5am, puts a gun to then-bf's head, accuses him of stealing 12k in dole cheques (who the fuck gets 12k in dole anyway?), there's a bit of a scrabble, nobody gets shot, I manage to get him out of the flat. He was off his head on something.
The police kept us in for an entire day of questioning, wanted the exact layout of the flats to send an armed squad in to get him out, talked about doing it the entire weekend, but did nothing, til he turned himself in on Monday. 'We didn't find anything in his flat'. No shit!
I don't blame Tuco for protecting his sister, I don't think sending shoplifters to prison is necessarily the right thing to do, but I'm afraid I don't believe that the police take threatening behaviour seriously either.
how the police system works, but it sucked big-time. We couldn't go back to the flat again, and ended up living with my mother for a month until we found a new place.
A guy from my local offered to get his legs broken (he had some dodgy mates), but I resisted the temptation, despite the utter shitness and inconvenience it caused us.
I just hope that bastards like him get caught out with bad karma coming back at them later in life.
hope he gets it sorted out.
I've heard stuff like this before. Even if you leave the country, it still catches up with you. Good luck to him. Seriously. x
gets a LOL rating of +5.