- Relevant artist taggings:
- M83 »[x]
- Real Estate »[x]
- This Week's Singles - 13/02/12: The Kills, Sleigh Bells, M83, First Aid Kit
- Moving Pictures - Videos of the Year: 4th Quarter 2011
- DiS' Favourite Albums of 2011: 75-50
- Play This: DiS Editor's Songs of 2011
- M83 - Hurry Up, We're Dreaming
- "I've never really been that proud of Saturdays=Youth" - DiS meets M83
- Spotifriday #109 - This week on DiS as a playlist ft. REM, The Antlers, Nicola Roberts
- M83 announce January UK tour
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Maybe the reviewers just thought the records in question were average?
Would you expect a sub-editor to bump up the scores in line with some entirely fictional 'DiS party line'? Or refuse to run them on the basis of the score being too low? I wouldn't, that would be BAD.
We'll see if they're right or wrong at the end of the year
when Medulla does his Dis users favourite albums poll of 2011 thread.
Subjectivity/objectivity apart, that will basically tell us whether the reviews are incorrect or not.
interesting theory
that popularity equates to quality
because usually popularity is seen as a sure sign that something is shit, in most arguments on these boards.
sean got you GOOD
That's a terrible argument sean.
Popularity usually equates to general consensus.
I think you're talking about indie one-upmanship/backlash, etc.
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-10-27/1288191050311.gif
http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2010-10-27/1288191050311.gif
To me that argument makes perfect sense.
There's a reason why you are not at billboards top 10 website.
With the dis users favourite albums thread last year, it was plain to see how many people liked a certain album due to the amount of votes certain albums received. Therefore, I'd say that if an album got voted for - in this case the vote was in the guise of a user 'thising' a certain post relating to an album that they liked, then it means that it's popular and fairly conclusive that it's a good album.
Sean is using the whole backlash mentality that happens on here a lot, to bolster his argument, and that's a different thing. You can't use the whole 'if it's popular, people hate it' idea, when people have knowingly voted for something because they've liked it.
That was fun last year.
When shall I begin? Mid-December?
I'm also leaving for a holiday Dec. 21st - January 1st, so the results will only be released in the new year.
Leave it as late as possible.
there's no such thing as an incorrect review, you slice
http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/music/4306993#r6344464
:D
Makes me really cross this kind of comment
I actually like both these lp's. But, this idea that every site should give lp's the same score is preposterous.
A review is an opinion. Is that really that hard to comprehend?
So if, say 25 or 30 people thought that it was a really good album.
And one person didn't; saying so in his review.
Would that mean that his review was incorrect?
No matter how good the album is - there'll always be someon that doesn't like it. I bet there's dozens of people on here that would give The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust a poor/mediocre score. Wouldn't obviously be right though, would it?
But then why do people even read reviews anyway?
Because a lot of the time they're good.
I'm not disagreeing with these reviews, incidentally. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that it's okay if a review is completely wrong, because it's just someone's opinion.
I thought 8 meant average album
these must be bad
In what universe is 8/10 an average album?
This one, unfortunately.
We've been trained to think that for years. Even when I was younger, Edge's video games scores confused me greatly because they didn't stick to the "8 is average" system.
omg what?? I am canceling my subscirption right NOW
haha
Just to say that
while it'd be slightly off the mark to say DiS pursues no editorial policy whatsover, reviews are all assigned by a volunteer system and in most cases nobody has heard the album before assignment and there is no pressure to deliver a certain mark (though I do sometimes tweak the score if I feel the tone of the review and the mark don't gel).
I'm sure things were very different back in the Sky days when there was an in house staff who could probably have a discussion about key records, but that doesn't really happen here - generally the most editorial it gets is me or Sean deciding we'll review a record we like ourselves, thus ensuring it gets a good review.
The idea that there is a 'correct' mark for a record is bizarre and depressing.
5/10
I can't trust a score that isn't precise to the first decimal place
I'm sure it was just shorthand for 5.0/10
indeed
also i'd have rated both of these 5 or lower.
for my short reviews and a score, see: http://twitter.com/seaninrcrds
Yeah but you like the Antlers.
Somone has a different opinion to you, shocker.
I'm not shocked that people are wrong.
this is what I was told when I queried whether the antlerw album was that great.
i'd be quite annoyed if a sub-editor 'tweaked' a score tbh
there goes my chances of writing for DiS
what would be even worse
is if we gave m83 a 9 or 10, just because I made the last one album of the year.
Not heard M83
but Real Estate is genuinely one of the most boring records I've ever heard.
god, yes
everywhere i turn i see that band being hyped. totally generic jangly indie piss with absolutely nothing even resembling a memorable melody to be found.
After the M83 review
and PF's subsequent praise...I downloaded it, and was sorely disappointed with DiS.
After the Real Estate review on PF, knowing it'd been panned on DiS, I was prepared to think OUTRAGEOUS thoughts. But then I listened to record and it was boring as fuck.
One point for PF.
One point for DiS.
I'm sleepy now. G'night!
pitchfork just gave Real Estate 8.7
And named it 'best new music', like Hurry Up We're Dreaming. I haven't listened to this album so I can't comment if it's any good (I agreed with DiS on Hurry Up We're Dreaming), but the situation is a bit funny.
ooops
I didn't mean to 'reply' to your comment oceanRain and then I realized you had already said what I was saying, sorry.
A review with low ratings shouldn't in any way hamper your enjoyment of it...
P4K's ratings of Biophilia hasn't suddenly made me start disliking it. I really like reading reviews and if they don't end up making me change my opinion they do, a lot of times, give a fresh perspective. The reviews here (and at P4K - more now then before)generally make for a good read.
how is 5 'low'
it is halfway.
often 50% is enough to pass an exam.
half a pint is still half a drink.
half a million pound, is still a lot of money.
p.s. someone also said 8/10 for the Bjork album was a 'negative' review?!
I did not mean these specific albums or ratings...I just meant generally.
Even though, with so much music being made today, 5 would be a signal for me to stay away - if I relied on this sort of thing at all.
I can't for the life of me see HOW someone would see an '8' as a negative review. But then, again, this a difference of opinion. Maybe, they liked it soooo much that an 8 was -ve. In which case, I don't see how the'd be satisfied with a mere 10!
This is about games, but is still pretty relevant here:
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/4118/1315159660139.png
Haha... I would move the orange area right before 7, name it Very Good
and be done with it.
brilliant.
see also: http://seaninsound.tumblr.com/post/4005980446/via-a-statistical-analysis-of-pitchforks-ratings
I'm awful at this but from what I can make out they just started liking music more since last year!
I find that rather cute.
or started reviewing less of the middle-of-the-blog-world stuff?
Hm
Yeah, I think my original sentiment should have been more along the lines of 'do we agree, what do we think?' though I am not above cynicism, and I am more than willing to believe that a sub-editor would edit a score.
Perhaps if people are so concerned about it DiS should just stop giving scores. That would actually encourage me to read review rather than looking at the scores and posting insensitive comments in the message boards at least.
Clearly when the end of year lists come out the reviews go out the window anyway. (Anais Mitchell as one obvious example.)
indeed
theQuietus don't do scores for this very reason.
however, scores mean we end up on metacritic, aoty, any decent music and various other sites, which account of about a third of the traffic a review gets - and helps people discover our site, amid a myriad of voices on the web.
nobody's that bothered, i'm sure.
this site's reviews tend to vary between the ridiculous (giving 'miss black america' super high scores) and the downright offensive (Joanna Newsome gig review where the writer's eyes fill with tears of golden spunk or whatever it was)
not read anything in the past 5 years then?
fair point.
I just searched for it. The first line of the review is "The problem with chillwave is that it’s just too chilled."
Won't be reading that one then.
:D
is that really the first line? sort it out sean.
cringeworthy isn't it?
I remember being out one night at uni and some guy trying to be cool saying to me "See, The Drums really headed the chillwave drive but i think they kinda disowned it before Best Coast et al hijacked it."
It's a pretty silly concept in the first place, but to completely get it wrong is even sillier & embarrassing.
It was pretty obvious
that those two albums were gonna get bnm on pitchfork. I think the dis reviewers were also conscious of this and it seems that they have scored both albums harshly to be "different" to pitchfork. I can understand why people might not enjoy the real estate album as it is a bit samey and there's a lot of bands with a similar sound. But seriously the m83 review is terrible, the guy spends half of the review talking about how the French have bad taste.
I think the dis reviewers were also conscious of this and it seems that they have scored both albums harshly to be "different" to pitchfork.
JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP I FUCKING HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right...
No ideas about the M83 album
But a 5 for Real Estate seems spot on, as long as we mean a 5 as it should be (average) and not how most people seem to think of it (pretty poor).
The album's all mellow and relaxed and gentle, but it really doesn't have much to say. If I just wanted to chill then I'd stick on some SAW or EITS, this is just a bit ... sappy
http://www.hipsterrunoff.com/altreport/2011/10/real-estate-gets-87-p4k-have-they-made-leap.html
Is he going to do that with every good Pitchfork review?
I can understand the score for that M83 record. I'm not a fan of him at all. "Days" by Real Estate however is at least a solid 7.
having listened to the M83 record today, i can definitely say
that the review on here is total nonsense AND harsh. Its brilliant. way better than saturdays=youth. I'm with P4k on this one.
Do you remember that time when this site scored an album a 9
and you didn't think it was 9/10 then, did DiS turn around and go your opinion is total nonsense and harsh?
im not saying his opinion is nonsense
im saying the review is, and that it is harsh. I could read an album review that i ultimately totally agree with, but i could still think the review was sub par.
I didn't think the review was upto scratch. Hence re-writing it a bit - and the writer then not wanting his name on it.
I agreed with the sentiment when he talked about the lp tho. I feel so disappointed by it.
you seem embarrassed to have liked saturdays=youth so much
like you're trying really hard to distance yourself from your former fanboyishness. maybe your hopes shouldn't have been so high?
s=y was a pretty good album, but not the greatest ever or anything. and hurry up... isn't really that different, maybe 3-4 tracks too long but every bit as good as what came before. i don't understand how you could be that disappointed.
"you didn't make the album i wanted you to make. fuck you, m83. i'm starting a backlash. you're dead to me now! you hear me! dead!"
sorry, rant over.
nah
i still adore s=y, and stand by making it the lp of the year.
just had high hopes for this record and he talked a good game...
M83 score was a bit harsh.
7/10 but no more than that. The thing doesn't work and it's length kills it.
It deserves some recognition cause it contains some great tracks but it needs to be half as long.
There are now 26 reviews on Metacritic.com of the M83 album.
DiS has given it the lowest score of the 26. Duh.....
It's averaging 7.9
I fucking love it.
m83 need to consider themselves lucky. just imagine being in Pheonix's shoes.
Their next album score will be in retrograde.
7.4 on Any Decent Music
http://anydecentmusic.com/review/3736/M83-Hurry-Up-Were-Dreaming.aspx
75 on AOTY http://www.albumoftheyear.org/album/2706-m83-hurry-up-were-dreaming.php
are there any other score aggregators?
i think we should remember that a review of say 5 from DiS is an 'average album' whereas even a 7 from P4K is a 'pan'
giving the m83 record another chance right now
will report back.
so far, the brass on Midnight City still irks.
would have loved this record so much more if it had started at track 4!
i do sometimes think
DIS would be better served by having a 'party line' to tow. The Real Estate album is better than 5/10, and not a chillwave record in any sense. Giving reviews to random writers and then not countering whatever they write does on the one hand allow writers to write whatever they want, but is that a good thing? What if they're wrong? Why not let anyone write a review in that case? Or just showcase reviews from other sites? Obviously not saying that Real Estate should be given a review just because it's Real Estate, that would be terrible, but at least criticise it from a knowledgeable position. Or a sub-editor should step in to correct mistakes, or at least make suggestions. Otherwise what's the point.
speaking as a reviewer I know I would be delighted to be told what opinions to put forward
in a review for which I wasn't getting paid, and can only assume that other writers would share that thrill
well i'm a reviewer too
i wouldn't want to be told what to say or think, but i would want mistakes pointed out to me, as that would make it a better review.
these are the existential crises I face on a daily basis.
like, if DiS was just my opinion (like Popjustice is mostly just Peter Robinson's) then it would made for a totally different site. however, being a cabal of opinionated individuals has always been the point. in fact, i've always been keen to run multiple reviews by staff and just 'feature' the one which is best written/argued/that-i-most-agree-with.
lemme start a new thread on this topic, as it's a little lost in here and i imagine something people might want to debate.
make* not made
and it's mistakes like this which underscore why i do not write the bulk of our editorial...
I think you wander down a very dodgy road...
...if you start talking about wrongness in music reviews. And a party line to tow would be pretty horrid, and incredibly cynical at the same time.
You don't want people to have to take a test of knowledge just to review an album or whatever. And, in any case, who says that someone with more "knowledge" would end up doing any record justice? It's not a guarantee of anything.
But WHAT IS THE POINT in any case?
Wrongness
just means mistakes, surely. What are sub-editors for, if not to correct mistakes?
And I think that
knowledge is important in a review. Obviously it needs to be lucid and engaging too, that goes without saying.
But without knowledge what is criticism? Just opinion. The internet has more than enough of that already.
Well, yeah.
But it wasn't clear that was what you were referring to in your post. And I do agree with you, essentially. But, like I say, there's no test for these things and maybe they are self-righting in some way. I.E if you are wrong, people will call you up on it.
Maybe that should be the job of the sub-editor, yes, but it's hardly like there are full-time subs doing these reviews. Not every point of contention can be investigated or "corrected".
adapting someone's opinion because it's a "mistake" would not go down well with anyone (least of all me!)
fyi, DiS doesn't have a great deal of resource and we certainly don't have some massive team of sub-editors. In fact, I'm the only full-time employee and most of my time is sucked up dealing with advertisers, technical things, spreading editorial, chasing invoices, trying to keep up with email, checking the boards for spam/trolling, etc. Andrzej our reviews editor works full-time at Timeout, and organizes things in the evenings/at weekends and uploads the reviews before work each morning.
Anyway, like I said, new thread coming atcha...
No, completely appreciate that
there's only so much the eds here can do, and that resources are tight, I'm certainly not having a go at anyone, just kind of thinking aloud. Think DIS does a gr8 job considering the resources.
head over here
feel free to re-iterate what you've said here as i think you make a good point (some days I would agree with you), and i imagine would be of interest to folks who've given up on this thread
http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/music/4307263
but how do you *prove* that the album is worth more than a 5?
If I had reviewed it I'd have done it in an entirely different fashion (and not mentioned chillwave ... ) but it's very likely I'd have still given it a 5, as that's just what I think it deserves.
So yeah, don't know how you can talk about "wrongness" in this context; except for when there's factual errors in a review, or when people come to an album and just put all their own prejudices into the review (say if you hated the singer of a band or something and decided to judge their music through that bias) I don't see how I can be wrong in thinking this album is just ok or that album is incredible. No one can provide any proof for their arguments, it's the *way* you argue your case that makes people pay attention to what you're saying
no yr right
it's up to the reviewer to prove their opinion to the reader. I thought yr review was really well written, and I'm not just talking about it alone. I just feel like sometimes there are little bits in some reviews on DiS that could be called up or questioned that would make them more convincing and consistent.
*disclaimer* I don't write reviews for DIS!
though I would like to ...
I was just saying what I would have done *if I'd reviewed that album*. But yeah, the point you make stands, though I think people do a decent job of calling up those kind of "mistakes" in the comments section of the reviews