A thread to acknowledge just how good pop music has been in the 2000s
Now I know this is probably a topic best saved for the Popjustice Forums, but I also know a fair few of you older and wiser folks on here like your pop. I always have done, but it's this decade which has REALLY made me love it.
And that's because I reckon it's pretty much been the most interesting and changing genre of music this decade.
When you look back on the 90s, it was an inventive time for most musical trends but pop was the one that really suffered. It was predictable, saccharine-sweet, ballad-heavy fare that relied on the odd European or American import to make it vaguely interesting.
But in the 00s something interesting happened. The genre nearly died due to its continued laziness and we not only got some decent pop songs but also some wholly great pop albums.
True, much of the success stories grew from shoddy starts. Girls Aloud were never really expected to last beyond album number one due to the show format they came together through, but whilst the boys tried to win hearts by relying on the power ballads, the girls had nothing to lose so hit us with heavy nods to 'My Sharona' and modern songwriting talent like Xenomania. They then went on to create 4 genuinely good / great records.
Timberlake threw off the shackles of NSync and grew into the best solo male performer since Jacko, with album number 2 in particular sitting comfortably alongside the years best records. Britney had a breakdown due to her fame but came back with 2 albums of bona fide electro pop genius, though admittedly with her that's often due to the team around her. Rihanna found a 'personality' and forged two very decent records littered with hits and personal honesty. Winehouse fleetingly resurrected that lost sound of the 60s. And then there were great songs by Beyonce, Stevens, Sam Sparro, Scissor Sisters, Robbie, Kylie, Sugababes, Keri Hilson...
Hell, even 'credible' stars saw that things were more interesting in the mainstream. Annie, Richard X, Dizzee Rascal, Jay-Z, Jarvis Cocker, Damon Albarn, Gwen Stefani, Timberland all jumped their current ships to get some chart hits out there and merge indie and R&B with motown and hip hop.
And I genuinely feel that all this happened because pop had got lazy, relying on boys singing love songs across 3 CD formats and 2 songs selling an album. It had to change, and it mutated into something that merged every influence around.
Ironically right now, the X Factor winners still sell records in pretty much the same mass-produced way they did 13 years ago, but the team behind them know they'll be redundant within 6 months if there isn't an even better 3rd or 4th single. And that's all down to how good and inventive this decade has been for those that took the risks.
That's my view anyhow. I know it'll get some dull ass 19 year old jumping in soon with a view that 'its not proper music' but hey...
Thoughts? Or favourites from the period?
Here's a playlist we started work on a while back:
http://open.spotify.com/user/seany_t/playlist/3gm8AvWu4UAHc6q8ZaMt3N
- Relevant artist taggings:
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God, thats a bit long. Sorry.
>Awaits a few "tl;dr" things down below<
You're cynical.
I've held these views for about 5 years now. It's only in hindsight when I look back on the sheer wealth of utter skill in that playlist, that it all makes sense.
It's like when you rewatch 'The Usual Suspects'...
Damn DiS
Just lost my lengthy reply. Short version:
I see what you're saying, but I'm generally not been so happy in the past having chart music blasting at me as I have been this decade. Plus I've actually even bought some such has been it's quality.
Every decade produces the odd pop hit undoubtedly. But this decade has blurred the edges of what 'pop' is and taken it to another level.
Good thread
I think this decade has seen some great pop records, much better that that of the 90's. Anne, Amerie, Kelis, Outkast and the aforementioned Mr. Timberlake all stick out as favourites. Not too keen on GA although some of their tracks are very nice indeed.
On a related note, have popjustice done any 00's lists yet? I dont really keep up with the site but would be interested in a top 100 pop tracks of the 00's.
Not yet they haven't.
And I'm not sure they will. Generally amusing, irreverent musings about the world of pop is more their thing than serious lists and stuff.
I agree with everything you've written there.
If you'd told me at the start of the decade that by the end of it I would be happily listening to whole albums by pop acts such as Girls Aloud then I would probably have laughed in your face.
Maybe I've changed, and I'm not quite so hung up about listening to what's 'cool' these days, but more likely as you say pop has changed and for the better.
God I love pop.
If there's one thing for which we can thank the likes of the Stereophonics
and Travis, it's that they created the vaccuum into which the like of the Neptunes and Timberland could find success in the UK.
It's really interesting how many 'indie' fans listen to pop now. I don't know whether it's because we're more open-minded, or whether it's because in comparison to the turgid guitar stuff around at the start of the decade (and also the music of the 'New Rock Revolution'), pop and r'n'b was so much more adventurous.
I have to say that I think the early part of the decade was the most solid, but there's been some great stuff out there.
Can someone find that thread in which we linked to loads of pop gems?
Cheers.
This one?
http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/music/4195440
that's the one!
great stuff
certainly open-mindedness comes into it
"indie" has covered so much of its own ground that to continue innovating, it's been forced to explore other genres, influences, production techniques, etc. in part that breeds an acceptance among fans of previously unexplored areas of music.
it should be noted that it did become "cool" to be much more open-minded about music, to have eclectic taste. compare this to the tribal mentality of decades previous, when music fans picked their camp and saw fans of other genres as the enemy!
pop has reached into indie, rock, hip-hop territory like never before. i hated much of the pop of the late 90s. i really liked the pop of the early 90s! but for entirely different reasons to why I like the last 10 yrs of pop. i liked early 90s pop because it was unabashedly itself and completely technicoloured, i liked the frantic, euphoric europop coming out of the netherlands and italy & others, i liked the silly chart hits that were throwaway and tongue-in-cheek. then it went all beige and mum-friendly, cue boys in suits swaying on fucking stools. and now it's really sophisticated, a clever mish-mash of styles. look at the number of huge pop hits using crunchy chords & noisy guitars (hi rihanna!), or weird syncopated or scattered beats taken from the IDM arena, and how hip-hop has really taken over the pop aesthetic. i have always loved pop, but there is so much more to enjoy in the average pop tune now.
i fucking love lady gaga.
on a separate note, i would like to see someone do an insanely fucked up cover of M's 'Pop Muzik'.
Yeah, mate, good stuff (didn't read all of it, soz)
I would like to say: I don't treat the pop music I listen to any differently from the "ALT." music I listen to. It's all one great bowl of chocolate-y goodness to me. I have noticed an increase in the "indie" types going "blah blah pop this, blah blah pop that" and, if I'm honest, it's getting a bit annoying.
I blame Franz Ferdinand. I remember the days were pop was sneered upon and I had to keep my passion for it on the downlow, and, if I was ever found out, I miss having to argue why I think Bronski Beat are really great to people who will never agree with me. Then Franz Ferdinand came in, giving it "Pop isn't a dirty word!" and - BAM! - everyone's going "We're going for a poppier sound on this album". I find it more boring to hear a bunch of musos harping on about how much they love Girls Aloud than how much they love SunnO)))))))))))))(((((((((([[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]]]]]]{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}} or whoever. Bring back the division, I say.
Cheers.
Totally agree
Though I can't physically imagine anything more boring than a bunch of folks going on about SunnO)))))))))))))...
If a record's good, it's good. Simple as. And this decade there's been at least a good dozen of them.
With Sunnetc., I can blank out the discussion
But when someone is blathering on about something I love and everything they say is so rehearsed (usually from an overly hip blog's review), far from the heart and just plain wrong, I can't ignore what they're saying and get mad and/or bored about it.
Ah I get you
Yeah, totally agree with that too.
The amount of times I've read 'Biology' is genius because of it's structure.
I'd never even noticed the structure truth be told. I was too busy humming that 'the way that we walk...' bit.
Correct
It's much better to have a division. Music will become too diluted otherwise.
The target audience of pop has become more sophisticated, earlier
11-16 year old are more receptive to indie, hip hop and dance influences which have converged with traditional pop.
You can see evidence of this in how young kids are now when they 'graduate' to music that used to be targeted at 18+ers
NME is the new smash hits.
Didn't read that
Okay, I've read it now
I don't think this has been the greatest decade for pop to be honest. I like that the current ethos is one of intelligent/ironic pop mixed with FUN, which had been lacking in popular music for a while. But it is getting a bit samey, and with things like Lady Gaga you get the feeling that there's more chin-stroking and irony then actual good tunes.
It all depends on how you classify pop I suppose, I'd put most of the mid-90s indie scene in the pop bracket, as well as most of the post-punk spin-offs of the early-80s (both of which I kind of prefer to modern pop).
NB Jarvis' solo stuff is way less pop then Pulp used to be when they were the best band in the world ever.
Sorry I hadn't finished
I was going to say that although 00s pop has been good and the current attitude towards it is good, when it all gets reduced down to the best songs, I think the sixties, eighties and nineties would match it, if not better it. (I realise you weren't being competitive about this, but still.)
I can totally agree with a lot of this too
I actually ended the statement with a bit about pop being on a precipice right now, with X Factor mimicking trends we saw in the 90s and folks like Lady Gaga essentially being the equivalent of Travis & Scouting for girls (eg. acts that have taken several years to get their arses into gear and are just watered down versions of what went before).
I do think pop's bubble will burst in the next year or so, with Timbaland, Timberlake, Farrell and Jay-Z all seemingly being bored with it. But I still maintain that as a whole, the decade was strong.
(The Jarvis period I referred to was when he collaborated with Richard X and did those songs for Harry Potter by the way.)
It's a funny one really
because whilst at first it seemed like originality and fun were the driving ethos of pop in the 00s, the second batch is full of people copying what has gone before and the ethos is buried to the point that it just becomes a 'sound'.
That doesn't make sense. Gaga types take the sound and aesthetic of their predecessors but fail to take on the originality and fun, but it takes a while to notice that they're just zeitgeisty types. Emperor's New Clothes innit.
you talking bout 3OH!3?
I keep hearing this assessment, but I don't know if I can agree
and I don't know whether that's because I'm just not as exposed to pop as much as I used too, or whether it's because I've only ever liked *bits* of pop, and so I don't see how this decade is remarkably different from the last.
For instance, at least two of the artists mentioned in the OP produced their best stuff in the 90s (Kylie and Britney) and at least a couple of others at the very start of this decade (e.g. Sugababes). And a lot of the really big ones this decade have done not much for me at all, e.g. Gnarls Barkley. (It's always a fraught exercise when you mix personal taste in with these debates, I know.)
Actually, now I've read Royter-Hatford's comment above, I should probably just abandon reply and ^This that. But, fuck it, I've already typed the words by now...
Britney's albums go:
Blackout >> Circus >>>>>>> everything else she's ever gone near
I reckon anyhow.
Interested that you say you keep hearing this assessment. I've not really seen much about pop anywhere of late. Any links to stuff you've read? I'd be interested in reading up on their thoughts too...
Ta!
Yeah I've noticed the Girls Aloud love on these boards
I'd even go so far as to say I've been pushing that notion myself for about 3 years on here alongside a few contributors up there ^.
Don't really read Pitchfork though to be honest? I know they loved JT's second record though, quite rightly. I thought robluvsnic might've seen some kind of end of decade summary or something that I'd missed...
http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/7703-the-decade-in-pop/
That's a very good piece
Cheers for that.
Maybe I should read Pitchfork more often...?
easily the best thing they've ever published
you should check out http://freakytrigger.co.uk/
Tom Ewing is in the middle of reviewing every UK #1 since the charts began. He's up to June 1986.
I think it's maybe that I keep hearing this assessment from you
I've heard it a few times in the pop threads that (ahem) pop up from time to time on these boards. Plus there's that great piece by Ewing on the Decade in Pop at Pitchfork (and it was probably you who linked to it in the first place).
Re. Britney's albums: now's the time I admit that, bar a few key pop artists I love (i.e. Kylie and then a bunch of artists that few would actually class as mainstream pop, e.g. Ben Lee, Goldfrapp), I don't listen to pop albums. Pop is all about the single for me. Thus, it's "Oops, I Did It Again" = "Baby One More Time" = "Toxic" >>> pretty much the rest of her singles (though I also should admit that I doubt I'm very familiar with her newer stuff).
On the point about what gets classed as proper mainstream pop, though: I think that's one of the big changes this decade. At the same time as pop has kind of diversified and became more inventive (a la Ewing's argument), it also became a much narrower genre, in that throughout the 00s it seemed to become more necessary to distinguish pop pop from various forms of alternative pop. By the latter, I mean just about anything that had a pop aesthetic or referenced pop history but otherwise deviated from what had become the established production/marketing model of big name producer plus massive promotion. Pop suddenly stopped being sufficiently broad enough to comfortably encompass, say, Lily Allen, The Bravery, Ben Lee or Goldfrapp, who each in their own way either beat an unconventional pathway into the mainstream or failed to really capture the mainstream, despite setting down a very radio-friendly pop aesthetic.
So, what is it you're talking about when you talk about pop? There's very little in the world that's more banal than defining/challenging definitions of a genre, I know, but in debates such as these it becomes crucial nevertheless. E.g. if it may be counted, I'd put my money on Goldfrapp's Supernature as pop album of the decade, and if I may count it (along with some of the others I mentioned) as pop, then I'd be inclined to re-evaluate my initial assessment.
I dunno really
I am shocking at categorising anything. I'll label anything 'electro' if it so much as sniffs a synth.
I guess I was referring to pop in the sense of the stuff that is catchy, charts well, often leads on it's singles and is accompanied by a glossy video. But I still see traits of those acts I listed in The Killers, Goldfrapp, Kaiser Chiefs, Franz Ferdinand etc. Hell, I see traits in even albums by FOTL, Spoon and LCD Soundsystem but I think they're a bit different.
See, I'm crap at this. Basically, I like pop and think it moved on and mutated into something far more interesting this decade. Whatever that might be called, I have no idea though?
Also, I heartily recommend 'Blackout'. Especially if you liked that Goldfrapp album, as it feels like an electroclash extension of where Goldfrapp were heading. To me anyhow...
It's not that you're crap at categorising music
it's that categorising music is doomed to failure no matter who's doing it. But the categories circulate, nevertheless, and become the basis for making sense of individual artists/albums/songs.
And, for me, that means that what's interesting is looking at the shifts and transformations to these categories. So it's interesting to see how indie-crossover in conjunction with the emergence of "urban" has redefined the mainstream, such that "stuff that is catchy, charts well, often leads on it's singles and is accompanied by a glossy video" is nowadays as likely to be some 80s-influenced "alternative" rock band (Killers, Bravery); or a female singer or electropop duo, who's written and recorded their own stuff and started on an independent label or low-key subsidiary of one of the majors (Lily Allen, La Roux, Goldfrapp); or some contemporary R&B/hop hop outfit.
But a lot of those artists would not be the names that would be first mentioned, if someone asked you to name some pop artists. So, there's also a pop aesthetic, separate from questions of label, distribution, promotion and radio-play. And it's in this way that I think the broadening of pop (along the lines of Ewing's argument) has also seen a narrowing of pop.
Thanks for the tip on Blackout, BTW. I will give it a listen. Cheers.
I'm ashamed to say I've not heard 'em...
Well I read it all...
... because it's exactly how I've been feeling in the last 3 years though much of it spent in denial... kudos!... though I took the time to read yours, I can't say I did the same for the responses!
Lady G has really intrigued me this year but that's possibly attributed to that fact that I believe she's trying to sabotage Pop Music from the inside by posing as a pop star... I'm convinced she's the pop anti-christ.
Rihanna's Umbrella (don't be crude!) pretty much brought me out the proverbial musical closet... that classic funk beat and those bad-ass synths... and all done on garageband allegedly too.
nah
bit harsh
that wasn't me - maybe codswallop or someone similarly prefixed
would be a bit over the top even if it was, you need to calm down.
s'aiight
no ham no fowl
i just had brown sauce on fried egg butties
I like music
Still think Girls Aloud (a few choruses aside) and Beyonce are shit though.
You don't like music
Correct.
Toxic by Britney
Is one of the best pop tracks written this decade.
Production is second to none.
this is pop?
I agree with those who've said that the definition of pop has narrowed somewhat this decade, however I also concur to an extent with the original point of pop being good this decade.
Of course a decade, in relation to pop culture, is a bit of an artificial construction and the beginning of the 2000's didn't see an exact break from the 1990's - for instance (according to Wikipedia) S Club 7 put out a fair amount of their material this decade yet seem to be widely perceived as a '90s act.
I think the perception that pop has been 'rather good' this decade is probably down to the critical reception that Girls Aloud (and to a lesser extent, Sugababes) have been getting in the UK. Combine that with the internet (and particularly sites like popjustice) giving airspace to pop-centric views there's a subculture to rival traditional rockist perceptions of music.
Personally, I hope that in years and decades to come that the 2000's are remembered for being as good a time for pop music as the 1980's. But, I think for that to happen the boundaries of what's conceived as pop needs to re-widen. We look back on the '80s now and acts such as ABC, Prefab Sprout, Blondie, XTC etc are all seen as pop groups, whereas if similar acts came around today would be labelled as 'indie'.
For the future to see this decade for being as good for pop music as it has been they need to include Franz Ferdinand, Goldfrapp, Interpol (etc etc) in with Lily Allen, Girls Aloud, Annie (etc etc) and those other more musically 'central' pop acts.
Also - for my money Britney and Timberlake are utter toss
Yeah, ^This
except I don't mind Britney. The point about popjustice, etc. is particularly pertinent. (Alliteration, anyone?)
not enough kelis in this thread
milkshake is never in the crazy in love/1 thing/whichever rhianna song debates when it's like 8 times better.
I'd pay that too
I just had to check Crazy in Love on youtube just to see if I'd actually heard it — I'm seriously starting to wonder if I belong in this thread. I have, and it's good, but I don't rate it as highly as Milkshake (and not even close to Kylie's Can't Get You out of My Head, Giving You Up, Slow or Light Years).