Boards

http://www.pledgemusic.com/ (had dinner with these folks last week, seem to be coming from a musicians first place)

http://www.sellaband.com/

http://www.bandstocks.com/ (the one patrick wolf and frYars used)

http://www.slicethepie.com/

there are probably a few more that i've forgotten about

http://www.indiegogo.com/

is the continured success of Marillion.

but it's a really interesting premise and something that could work for some bands. there's quite a bit of tripe that's gone through sellaband, but with names like that it could spur people on a bit more.

Ultimately it will come down to whether anyone is happy to 'invest' in music proppa anymore.

and my personal opinion is that the smaller bands will come good for it. but the bigger bands i see struggling. mmisl are dead, long live mmisl!

anyone remember when Dodgy did this about ten years ago?

this model seems to be entirely the preserve of artists past their commercial peak (argueably also their creative one - seriously, who still buys new Public Enemy records?) or new artists. Seemed to work pretty well for Meet Me In St Louis, for example.

i think it's a neat idea, though, on a whole bunch of different levels (financially, interacting with fans) but it sounds like an administrative nightmare for any small labels who get involved.

I suppose I'm a single fan investing in a band as i love it and want other people to have the chance of finding them.

I go on about the band(s) enough on the board and i know i apologise for endless jagging but well its just because I'm a fan who wants to get the music out to other people. The band contacted me the feburary before last through my old blog and I just kind of struck up a correspondence with them, they sent me loads of stuff, I found loads of stuff on their website to download and I just generally immense myself in their own friend's based label. I liked that it was just a group of friends making music and then not only releasing them but doing it on vinyl mainly.

Well I was just super lucky to have stumbled upon this wealth of amazing music, seriously gallons of it, and they were basically unheard of outside cleveland and akron in ohio. So as i was thinking about starting a record label and I just thought it a wee bit criminal that people weren't listening to their music so we talked and I'm basically there UK distribution under my label for primarily the vinyl releases. I invested, i suppose you could say, in the vinyl releases so it was cheaper for the band to get their music out and then "released" it in the UK. just getting people to listening to the music who wouldn't have had the chance was basically my intention, and i think we did really well, reviews in print and on nice websites, then a european record label came in and signed up the original album for an international release on cd. can't ask much more than that. sure as a fan i have no intention of making money, first lp just broke even, and the second has got hundreds left to go, (vinyl only EPs maybe not the best sellers), but i just hoped people might have a listen and like something they might not otherwise have heard.

well yeah, i ramble, i don't make much sense, and this was probably a bit off topic, but i dunno i suppose in the smaller end of things all record labels are made to invest in bands and help them reach a bigger audience. ach well the more i write on the less relevance i think it has to the orignal post but meh i've written it now.

Paid $35 dollars to help fund an album and in return: Got to watch the sessions live via satellite broadcast. Got cd in the mail from "Bargeld Entertainment" which had my name in the credits. Actually pretty cool idea I think and for a small amount of money you get to feel like you are in some small way you (tentatively) fit into the creative process somewhere- as a PATRON possibly.

Einsturzende's supporter projects are finis- they were cool.

and i am glad that i was.

If bands make most of their money from gigs/tours/merch nowadays and getting fans to stump up the money upfront and is a better way of getting recordings done then I think it’s a good thing.

I mean how many cds would need to be sold to recoup the costs of recording if they were signed to a label and paying the overheads, costs etc associated with a bigger organization. i cant put a number on it but its got to be more that 3000 that did prepay for it.

Is it going to work for bands putting out debut records? Probably not. Is this a particularly bad/different thing? Maybe/Maybe.

I'm not sure how asking for fans to contribute towards their recording costs went but I'd definitely do it again for a band I really liked.

Didn't MMiSL do this too?

see it working for new bands with debuts.

maybe though if dis readers had the chance to contribute to dis records it might be interesting. having a hand in picking the song that dis records stump up the cash for recording with readers having the option to contribute/pre order.

but the jury is still out. It would need some weird contracts worked out.

I did this for the Mark Gardner album which came with a DVD if you were one of those contributing. Unfortunately the DVD came about 3 years after the album, the album sucked and now I have no desire to fund him ever again.

I imagine it's something most effective with established bands who've released a couple of albums but don't want to go down the record label route. I imagine it'd be a bit harder for a brand new band to get that.

I also think there's potential risks involved as well as it could subconsciously put a band under pressure to release records that "preach to the converted" so that said converted continue to invest, though I guess you could argue the same about a major record label contract.

It's something I'm a bit uncomfortable with myself, depending on the level of investment. I mean if it's "give me a tenner now and you'll get your album at the time" then that's fine but if it's an individual making significant 'investment' without much change of getting money back (as we've been offered a couple of times in the past) I'm a lot more reluctant due to the large chances of the investment not being returned - certainly I'd be uncomfortable taking someone's money unless I knew there was a good chance of them getting back. Though I guess rationally this is exactly what the indie label we're on does, but at least it feels like they know the risks and treat it as a business decision.

all garbled and i won't make sense. fans fronting the cash only works i think if the band / act are already reasonably established, purely because you need a certain amount of money / contributors to actually make it happen. might work for a debut if there is a big enough fanbase with media support.

i see it working better for labels - fans could perhaps pay a subscription which would then fund records and the fan gets a set amount of albums / downloads / whatever. you also have to consider if an album is a suitable format in this day and age but thats a different discussion.

it is a bit like commisioning an artist i suppose. but it would only be worthwhile if there is a large number of contributors - if funding came for one or two individuals, then they could (somewhat fairly maybe?)

They ask for donations and don't make their new book available until a certain goal has been reached. Like many people have already said, it could work for established writers but new writers are going to struggle to gain significant exposure or trust from their potential investors. Personally, I'd be afraid of using that model and making it so public as you're gonna look like a bit of a prick if you fall short of your total. It's kind of an arrogant way of doing it, in my opinion.

And on the music front, didn't White Denim try a subscription service which went wrong? They got loads of money from people (although I don't know if that was to fund a recording or just to help with cashflow), promising limited edition records and whatnot, but fell short of enough subscribers to cover their costs and had to re-pay everyone in the end.

However, negativity aside, I do think that this idea could be a good one over the next couple of years, it just needs a bit of clever thinking. There's certainly potential out there to be invested in, and with the right rewards it can be a fun experience for all involved. I nearly put some money into the football thing (the company who eventually bought Ebbsfleet) but decided against it in the end. I liked the idea of being involved but was wary of ending up as just one voice drowning in a sea of others. So I guess the big incentives for me would be to feel as though I was either receiving something really cool (items or access unavailable elsewhere) or to have an opinion which would actually matter.

Sean, have you read this book? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Then-Theres-This-Bill-Wasik/dp/0670020842/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254848391&sr=8-1 - It touches on a few subjects which loosely tie in with this topic. Might be of interest? I can lend it to you if you want to read it?

If it's a band, established or not, but which already has a few fans, which is doing it by themselves, I find it a good idea. Sing-Sing did it a few years ago after getting dropped by Poptones. Without it, there would never have been a second album.

When it's done by websites trying to show new artists as an investment, it's awful. In France, Mymajorcompany (name says it all) had an enormous success with the awful Gregoire. People will always finance commercial things in this case...

...who run Pledge Music are personal friends of mine so I hope that they can make the model work on a personal level (they've invested a lot of money into it).

It seems like a good idea but I think there still needs to be a certain something (I don't know what this is) which will make it accessible to bands who don't have a huge and affluent fanbase who are willing to part with cash on a "risk" basis...

I've got involved in similar things with a few small bands I really like and it's nice to feel you are contributing and you get something back.

I really like this idea - http://www.gabbyyoungandotheranimals.com/signup/ - you select a package from £12.50 to £65. Each get you the album, and varying levels of 'extras', including a personal video message if you go for the top one. I went for the middle package which I thought was good value. Have yet to get the free gigs, but have the CD and a few other bits & pieces. There are plenty of small bands that I would be happy to support in this way - it costs a bit more than a standard album release but you get more in return and get to support a band you feel passionate about. No idea if this has paid off compared to a standard release but would be interested to find out.

Another example was a band called Revere (linked to the above via shared members) who asked for fan donations to fund a video which was very ambitious for a band of their size (but they go over and above when it comes to 'artistic efforts' whether that's gigs, releases, videos etc). It paid off and resulted in a great video, and in return contributors got a copy of the single on DVD when it was released.

Sorry if that was a bit long winded, but in short I think this type of thing should be encouraged. For smaller bands it brings bands and fans closer together and probably results in bands being better off.

I mange EES = I wanted to take over the world when I first started managing them in 2003 and thought we were going to at one stage (all the major labels swarmed around the at the time of The Hives and The Datsuns blew up) but EES were not picked up...
We continued doing our own thing working with independents and touring all over the world...
We watched many of EES contemporaries get picked up in that period and also when the Darkness blew up only to see most of them chewed up, spat out and split up...

In 2006 EES unfortunately found themselves in a deal with a record label who were trying to screw the band - So we raised $20,000 from EES fans so we could get out of the deal. We released the album ourselves.

In 2008 EES raised $50,000 through SellaBand - the new album comes out later this month. We have licensed it to Universal in Japan and a Sony distributed label in Germany.

EES are currently in Norway tourng with their friends the Cumshots - they hit the UK on the 17th for the Bizarre Ball...

EES remain in control of their career and play large festivals and gigs around the world - this is what they love doing. They wouldn't be doing this without the support of their fans and Fan Funding.

They have to put up or shut up. Either they're up to it or they aren't. Put a record out, if it's great i'll buy it, if it's not then fuck 'em. They moan like bitches but they don't have to be musicians, they could work in a factory or office for £250 a week and hate themselves until they're old like most of us. If they consider themselves artists then make art and sell it, upr shut up. Punks.

* I'm aware that SOME people in bands will have jobs.

I don't think kissingkansas has quite bought into the whole idea!!

Call me old fashioned, but what's wrong with just buying the records?

This is a really interesting debate. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing. All i know is that we can't really afford to record an album. There's other priorities such as mortgages and kids to pay for so I find myself taking second and third jobs to pay for equipment, van insurance and repairs and such. That's not an excuse or anything, I'm sure there's a better way to go about getting these things done more easily and efficiently, whether it's getting a label involved or whatever. I'm just not sure how i feel about getting followers of our band to pay for things in advance. It just feels a bit cheeky. At least we break even these days!

i'm pretty sure at this rate though, the only guaranteed thing is me having a heart attack before i'm 30.

nothing really, i guess it's just how much control you want to have

yes there is

what sean said. i know a few labels who give plenty of freedom. but i don't really know anyone who's making ends meet. i'll stay open minded though about all this new change malarky

When you look at the the innate inefficiencies of how record labels operate then for me Fan Funding becomes more obvious - build a relationship direct with the audience...

Re labels - I have advised a number of artists on problems with labels and I could tell you a lot of stories about labels that are perceived as being cool and artist friendly who have shafted artists...

I have only ever fallen out with one label - because they repeatedly lied - mostly it is not because they are bad people - it is because of the commercial pressures of running a label are immense. It requires investment a long way up front with no guarantee of income. And what income does come in is held onto by your distributor for ages.

Tony Wilson was a good man but he shafted New Order - but only because The Happy Mondays (and the Hacienda) shafted him!

My point is that Labels always had problems looking after artists - 1 in 10 artists making it through traditional labels meant that 9 were chewed up and spat out - and as commercial pressures change the odds of getting chewed up increase and so less artists are being signed and supported by labels...

Contrast this with the fact that the demand for music is as strong as ever - if not stronger - alternative models will thrive if they can marry up this disparity between demand and supply.

Fan Funding is not for everyone but I have made it work for an artist I love (Electric Eel Shock) and they continue to do what they do best i.e. entertaining audiences around the world...
Many other artists have similar mini success stories... I think that these stories can get larger especially if artist are creative with how they use fan funding.

loads more bands are going to start doing this stuff. its fair and punk and removes most of the middlemen. the industry'll split in two. they'll be people who do stuff like this in the hope they can take it to career levels without crippling their bank balances and bands (girl pop stars) that labels'll sink buckets of cash into promoting on bill boards and national radio and stuff. and it'll get to the point where pop music and loving band x will be totally seperate things.
maybe idk.

is there anything more abhorrent than a band/artist/musician asking you for money? pimping your wares is bad enough, but asking for donations/investment seems kinda wrong and am not sure it's a bridge fans should cross if the band is to remain special. or am i being idealist?

and surely this only works for music that appeals to people of a certain age? no 15 year old has £20 to give to a band, especially without instant gratification.

I mean, Idlewild was £15 right?

Is it any different to an artist saying buy my CD today?
Or come to my gig...
Artists are always asking for support

I go back to my point about it will work if artists are creative with it...
I am not sure about the whole fans investing angle...
I think that Fan Funding works where the fans are getting a deeper involvement with the band they really like

EES first fan funding was that we needed cash and so we sold 100 x guestlist for life for £100 a pop - we sold them easily and everyone has been really happy - actually we have a few that were 15 when we did it and one who was 12 - who after coming to so many gigs we made him our roadie last year - oh and on that note we also had an old man who has become tour manager - it was obvious that he could do a much better job than me because I am always drunk!

Where I think Fan Funding falls down is when some unknown artist thinks that a signed copy of their album is value - that is bullshit!

Maybe instead of thinking about why it wouldn't work - why not think about what artists you would like to support and how you would like to support them.

For me it might be a band called Giddy Motors who were on Fat Cat Records - I used to always go and see them live - but they packed it in because they couldn't make it pay - if I could help them gig again then I would... I wish the Dwarves would tour more often... Oh and I always wanted to get Jucifer to the UK... or even Captured by Robots!