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Have all done extremely significant work that would be problematic to ignore if you're claiming to compile the best music of the decade. To not be balanced between styles and genres when deciding what the best stuff is=problematic. For everyone. Good luck improving your argument.
For starters, who's suggesting their list is objective?
Your argument has no backbone. Shall I go and to a load of classical music just to make sure I fulfill 'the balance between styles and genres' even though it's not really my thing. Nah.
Also, it seems like you're suggesting 'black music' is exclusively hip hop and r'n'b. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but the 'race' issue is already redundant.
It just so happens that hip hop is one of if not the most dominant force in music in this decade.
and this is generally a site for fans of indie, where the ratio of white people to black people is quite high.
i dont think people on here really care about race or sex, infact Everett True is probably the only one.
for the record, two out of my ten albums for the decade are black, but all of them are bloody foreigners.
Tell me what you know about it.
If there is any genre which has developed in the past 15 years its hip-hop.
Go and post a thread on a hip hop forum about the disturbing lack of white acts on their 'Decade Lists' and see how people react.
People like what they like if they like how it sounds. The skin pigmentation of the artists behind the music is of negligible importance. What next, a quota system?
Have fun with that.
This is generally a guitar/indie website which tends to be largely dominated by white people.
I'm not a big rap/hip hop fan - so i won't put them in for token purposes.
Only open to discussion about "indie rock." And if you try to open up a discussion about it, you're "stupid."
Real mature guys, good work.
you didnt say anything about rap or hiphop, you are talking about race and obviously trying to hint that the DiS boards are racist. thats why people are calling you daft.
I'm flat out saying that the majority of the DiS boards don't give music made by non-whites a second thought.
If that makes you uncomfortable, then that's your problem.
makes me think you're a bit thick
composed almost exclusively of man people, luis_c?
starting with doom, ending in ugk.
All female artists/groups that contain women.
i don't know the microphones, they might be non-white?
you utter, utter mong
I'll have answers for whatever you come up with.
And how many universes are there?
Do I exist?
What should be done when an endangered animal eats endangered plants?
Is it possible to be a closet claustrophobic?
If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody's around, what are the chances of it falling in bear shit?
Why can't women put on mascara with their mouth closed?
Are you the same person now as when you started reading this post?
How do you know?
I mean, really?
How many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man?
If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
Do you have to know pain to know pleasure?
If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?
How does it feel to be such a twonk?
that the only genre of album orientated music where black people are dominant is rap music. Of course, they have their fingers in many aspects of the pop, r&b, electronic and umbrella "urban" genres, but these tend to be expressed via the mediums of the single and the short release. You could even argue that rap itself is a genre which hasn't really attached itself to the album format, and is still more concerned with single tracks and mixtapes. The number of really great 00s rap albums could be counted on the fingers of a serial fireworks holder
The more traditional spheres of black music, i.e. jazz, blues, funk, soul have had their contemporary releases near enough ignored by even the internet sub mainstream, apart from the few individual aspects that have been absorbed into the mainstream and indie circles. As far as us guys are concerned, they're pretty much dead genres. This is concerning, but you could argue that the black audiences who originally latched on to such materials have moved on to the modern genres above, and so they don't get themselves in the public arena enough to make an impact. Don't you think?
But thank you for a response that's actually intelligent, as opposed to the defensive, asinine nonsense that's been spouted thus far.
Without resorting to a personal attack, then defend away. But you're not making a point by attacking me.
that's offensive and very bloody silly. people will respond in kind.
You might well have a point, but it really doesn't matter.
The fact is that, by its very nature, this site appears to be populated overwhelmingly by young white people who like, discuss, and are knowledgable predominantly about guitar music.
It's a positive thing if people interested in other forms of music can contribute their knowledge here and perhaps enlighten or influence others to broaden their horizons; get them to check out some classic funk or whatever...
When you have certain people (no names named) who say things like,
"You really needn't have to waste your time listening to R&B, it won't win you friends, but apparently might earn you a few indie points. Open your ears, 99% of it's dogshit", then we start to have problems. Because vitriol like that promotes ignorance and comes attached with a highly suspect agenda. You'd have to be a cunt to disagree.
It's just someone saying they dislike a certain genre of music. Nowt to do with race.
The only reason someone would like R&B is to appear open-minded? Its a joke.
You said it, bub.
certainly the music board. put a sock in it.
I bring up things that you don't want to think about?
he's obviously trollin'
All your billy goat are belong to us.
that suggests to me that even if you did encounter a list containing a significant proportion of 'non-white' music, you'd probably dismiss it as a token gesture. If you're referring to the lists in your previous LP of the Decade thread, I know that I included a fair number of 'non-white' musicians and I can distinctly remember seeing Madvillainy, The Cold Vein, Outkast, Fly Lo and a few others cropping up on numerous lists. In fact, I think you criticised someone for their hip-hop choices 'not being the right ones.'
Slightly off topic, but I'd say a similar sentiment informed your thread about records that won't make it into Decade lists, especially your assertion that any publication which chose to include Basinki's Disintegration Loops would be doing so only as a token gesture. Bit of a Catch 22, huh?
Anyway, back to the OP, while the posters I'm referring to may not have replied in your thread, there are any number of people on here who regularly discuss and are manifestly informed about 'non-white' music. Equally, there are people who don't. I fail to see the issue.
but got bored because SO FUCKING MANY of the lists had non-white artists on them - Enon, At the Drive-In, Bloc Party, TV on the Radio, Boredoms, Mono, Boris - at least one of those came up on almost all of the first 15 lists. Yes, I did do this exclusively to prove you wrong. Yes, I feel fine about that.
I think your issue is more than the people of DiS aren't open enough to hip hop/ r&b. Because if people have spent most of the decade listening to indie rock, then thats what will be in their lists, surely?
I personally don't think there's anything problematic about people following one genre a lot more than others. I mean, there are plenty of people who follow hip hop or dance or pop exclusively.
people who are listing are searching for something more, whereas contented people are listening to music or talking about it or whatever.
expected intelligent answers to this thread? think hard now.
fuck, implying that there's a hidden racist in everyone who don't listen to alot of hip-hop is the most idiotic claim I've heard in 10 days. And the basis of this is your observation of peoples end-of-the-year lists? Fucking hell, man.
and the "I just say what you don't want to hear"- thing is horrible. it sounds like me arguing with my parents, age 14.
they don't aproach music as some kind of affirmitave action sociological project. i doubt colour even comes into people's heads.
sure are a lot of racists in this thread
Where does it all end? I'll tell you: Year-end record lists.
We gotta draw the line somewhere.
Fucking prejudiced bastards
Not one LP made by people over 80. No respect, just no respect.
We know it's problematic, we wrote the lists. But there's not a lot we can do about it. Go tell them blacks to make some good music for a change and they might get included.
people tend to be able to relate to music from people of similar cultural backgrounds because of shared experience/outlook etc. There is nothing remotely problematic of racist about it.
people like music they relate to - true
people tend to be able to relate to music from people of similar cultural backgrounds because of shared experience/outlook etc. - probably true
There is nothing remotely problematic of racist about it - mmmmmm. not true.
in most cases there is probably nothing racist about it. but in some cases, perhaps this doesn't apply to anyone on this board, it is indicative of a conscious or subconscious racism.
As for problematic, it is clear that there are worse problems out there. The BNP being a prime example. But that is not to say that it is a perfect situation. A perfect society would involve strong cultural identities for people of different ethnic backgrounds, but those identities to be secondary to a shared cultural experience that trancends ethnic background. A lack of a shared cultural experience is not evidence of blatant racism, but it may indicate more subtle racism and it almost certainly indicates a society that - for whatever reason - does not give people of different ethnic backgrounds the same opportunities as the 'white english'* population gets. A lack of a shared cultural experience emphasizes our difference - something that is problematic.
* I include in white english people who can pass themselves off as 'white english' by virtue of their accent and skin colour despite being less british than many immigrants who got here earlier.
Hopefully this goes better than you chastising of other for being 'homophobes' while publishing awful bigoted-homophobic-shite on your blog.
Please just fuck off.
wrong button, but yeah you got some points there. we should all get back to this subject in 8 000 years when all the people in the world have totally mixed up, there's no cultural differences, just one religion if any, and total harmony among all beings. meanwhile, lets enjoy the fact that there is so many different cultures and music to get inspired and educated of.
My list would be fully white, and wonder why. I love rap music, but it's all 90's, the same as most people on here rap music. Maybe Dizzee Rascal would be in there, but struggling after that. Favorite albums ever would be a different matter, loads of black music in there. So has it just been a crap decade for black music? Or do we just not hear about black music enough in music media?
you are absolutely pathetic. just because a "decade lists" contains a minimal amount of music made by blacks does not necessarily mean that said person making the list is a racist. rather, it implies that he/she felt that whatever music made by black people (rap, r and b, etc) is something that in THEIR OWN EYES need not warrant making said list.
and btw, pitchfork has outkast's B.O.B. as the song of the decade, so your criticism has little merit whatsoever.
Anyone into bhangra?
I can dance better to that than any other music, I love it it makes me feel soo good and big headed, like a dance god
(maybe not real bhangra, but I wanted to put in a name check)
just because something is problematic, why on earth do you assume he is accusing anyone of racism?
of his "I bring up things that you don't want to think about?"- comments?
are hip hop artists!
However, I've been brought up on Jazz.
Public Enemy shirts, but I've only ever seen two black people wearing Slayer shirts.
From this I draw the only logical conclusion, Camden Market is run by a cabal of racists and should be relocated to Peckham with immediate effect.
is why we never see any orthodox Jews at Pens shows.
I'm a black girl and I'm joining a metal band. True story.
Now, quiet while I put my R Kelly on. FFS.
know more about being black than a stupid guilt ridden white middle class liberal!
some of my best friends are white middle class liberals.
Hmmm, now if you'd said it was automatic, systematic or hydromatic...
Music made by (the majority of) black people was good up until the mid-70s when funk mutated into disco. Why don't (most) black people have better taste in music? I'm fucked if I know. But I think that a lot of people think that to not like hop hop and/or rap means they're not being black enough or something.
in fact this demographic (on the whole) more than other demographics, would run a mile from being ist if they really thought it was serious.
My own list of god like guitar heroes goes like this
I think clapton was comparitively rubbish and was intensly jealous of hendrix's effortless ability, effortless inventiveness and his public aclaim and love and colour (in more that one limited sense)
However Lenny Kravitz does not cut the mustard as far as i am concerned.
Apart from suprises (like the chic guys) black musicians have not tended to be as awesome with guitars as they used to.
I like guitar music most people on here like guitar music, guitar music tends to be exemplified by mostly male but even more mostly white males.
I like Bloc Party but do not think they are genius like say radiohead
I also like electronic music and like Felix da housecat
There is no point to people like you trying to find discrimination where in fact there is less discrimination than elsewhere.
To do so is appalling and ridiculous, it is this sort of behaviour that feeds the reactionary backlash against 'pc' and 'do-gooders'
"There is no point to people like you trying to find discrimination where in fact there is less discrimination than elsewhere.
To do so is appalling and ridiculous, it is this sort of behaviour that feeds the reactionary backlash against 'pc' and 'do-gooders' "
Racists are scumbags worthy of absolute hatred.
Non-racists who are complacent, and not prepared to discuss political matters, are not scumbags, but they're certainly far from the sorts of people that I am impressed by.
And the 'indie' world is relatively liberal and relatively left wing. Almost by definition it appeals to people who support the underdog (not the stadium act). I grew up believing that there was a direct link between the left and indie. A direct link between militant anti-nazi organisations and indie music.
In fact many on here seem to think that racism is no longer an issue and that beyond being non-racist the individual has no further responsibility. I think this viewpoint is naive, lazy, stupid, dangerous and indicative of a unhealthy disinterest in politics (and thinking) generally. The fact that this attitude is coming from a group that I grew up thinking would stand next to me at anti-nazi protests is fucking depressing.
sweet jesus christ, just because people don't get involved in your self righteous bullshit doesn't mean that nobody cares about contemporary racism, or thinks that it's a problem that has solved itself. Maybe people in a sweet little multicultural bubble (certain parts of swinging London) might see the situation as hunky dory, but most people realise that racism still exists in various forms. But to accuse people of being complacent on a board where nobody ever displays any outward racism, and anybody who does is torn apart (by people with more of a clue than you).. it reeks of utter bullshit, and a blinkered attitude to the site that can only be based on little experience and a lot of self aggrandising, self righteous smuggery.
I'd also paint "racism" as a far more complex issue than the way you're describing it, a black and white (no pun) saviours versus "scumbags worthy of absolute hatred" situation. And yes, that sort of us v them attitude could be seen as being deeply unhelpful to spreading the message of anti racism to people and communities who don't fit into your cosy little student rally world. Creakyknees is spot on when he talks about reactionary attitudes to political correctness - why drive away the people you want to convert by sneering at them? What exactly does that help, other than inflating your own sense of worth? Creating a split between the righteous and the "pleb" will disincline a number of people from aligning themselves with you.
I've ignored you up to now, pitying your poor adolescent view of the world. But this seems as good a time as any to drop some science
most of that is just a rant but i'll respond to what few points i can eke out.
racism is more complex than i have presented in a brief post on a messageboard. well spotted.
you are referring to me as describing a "saviours versus "scumbags worthy of absolute hatred" situation". my entire point was about the majority on this board who i have described as being in the middle ground.
my world is deeply complex, and i have presented a simple verion of the issue as it directly relates to the people in this board who type things that i believe are unacceptable.
i don't want to drive people away, i want them to think how offensive the casual use of racist language can be to some people (probably more than bother posting their disgust) and consider whether the world would be a better place if they moved themselves to the moral high ground. but people on here don't seem to want to do that, or even consider doing that.
To use your words, not mine, to some extent the whole racism issue would be much more simple to deal with by forcing all 'plebs' to take a stance one way or the other. ie "i am a racist" or "i will take every opportunity to remind the world that using certain phrases in certain ways is completely unacceptable." there are too many people out there who are more than happy to use racist language and defend it by saying they're not racist. they should stand up and be counted one way or another.
on your blog is, and then kindly realize you are an utter twizzler.
are written by people who listen to music which people of colour don't play a big role in - indie, rock, metal, et cetera.
As for whether this is a racist thing to do, I'd say no, no it isn't. One must always listen to music based on how that music affects you, and how it resonates with you long after the final note has been played. You must never listen to music based on whether or not the artist you're into is 98.765% Mexican. That's a stupid way to go about judging art.
I'm sure hip-hop commentators' lists will feature far more black people than white people. Said lists will also feature much more hip-hop than any other genre. Is this racist? No. Once again, these cats are going with what they know and like. Race isn't the issue.
Your question is divisive. It seems to call for something near to but not quite tokenism. Why would you want someone to be included on a best of list simply because they're half-Indian or whatever? If I was being pandered to like that, I'd find it far more offensive than being left off of a list altogether. Perhaps, just perhaps, the critics you refer to don't think there's been a really fantastic record made by a black or Chinese person this decade? Let's suppose further. Let's suppose that maybe, just maybe, these same critics don't consider it a question of race but talent, and perhaps there simply, in the critics' opinion, hasn't been a black or Chinese or Indian or Scottish person gifted enough to claim a place on these lists? Is that possible, do you think?
Personally I think Dizzee, Nas, and M.I.A made three of the best records this decade. But the difference between you and I, Carruthers, is that I say this about those artists because their tunes touched me, made me nod my head to the beat, soundtracked some great times in my life, and made me feel fucking invincible. I don't say it because they're members of a different race to my white boy indie self. Because tokenism isn't cool, even when you do it with the best of intentions.
I just don't like talking about it, its irrelevant to your argument, some people turn up to stuff for a variety of reasons, not all laudable (even if the overall idea is laudable).
I have, at a couple of points in my life, only had non-white closest mates, outside of work, and suffered when encoutering racist attitudes at work, feeling like a traitor to my best mate for not kicking in heads at work, i feel that i am senstitive to racism and do not detect it as a trend on this website at all, hence i stick around here, sure sometimes there are ridiculous nasty crudeness for the 'humour of irony on here' and i am not comfortable about that, far too many rape jokes and midget jokes if anything, but seriously people on here do actually seem to be aware of the idea that evern ironic racism isn't really on.
You are right that complacency is not to be accepted, because it can become a dangerous environment, but I feel that you are wrong because whilst white middle class indie boy rock mi8ght be rather exclusively a white middle class indie boy rock domain, white middle class indie boy rock is inhabited by people who are not preoccupied with their own supremacy in hardly ny areas, they can be very self effacing, self absorbed sure, arrogant sure, but self assured and domineering and feeling superior (apart from their taste) to others is not a defining characteristic of this grouping, in fact as a demographic it is in awe of people with natural rhythm (note my slipping in of ionic racism there? ;) actually I love dancing and do so at the slightest provocation)
I only said that cos loads of people on here are reluctant to 'dance funkily' but would probably love to, but are too self concious and are aware of it.
However having chosen indie (or it choosing them) these sort of people (on the whole) at least have the mentality which does not allow hem to have the false assumptions and intellectual delusion that is required for much racism.
This is my opinion, but I feel that your argument might be valid if you did not know this site and were just applyi8ng it generically to the whole of society, but when you apply it to a section which on the whole it is specifically not applicable to, it is invalid.
This is an irrelevant and invalid hypothesis as the indie scene is overwhelmingly white male, yet these white males will also like smatterings of some reggae or electro artists or jazz or blues or r n b, and yet they might not feel as if these genres are not exactly applicable to them as much of it they might not be comfortable with (many find wiggas pretentious and laughable, perhaps unfairly but there can be elements that are pseud (although pseud can apply to many other areas) some other genres of music are actually far less accepting (although if you can be natural and arnt afraid to dance and mix it and have more confidence then it is easier)
I have never seen any real racism directed towards bloc party on here (I may have missed some of course)
Would I lie to you is on and Jamelia is well fit (is that sexist?)
And i always thought Kiesha > Mutya > Heidi
please analyse me (racist/sexist/dirty old man)
If its of any help to your analysis I think Jimi Hendrix is sexier than Heidi (srsly) (at least that would excuse me of being a dirty old man, cos i thought it when i was younger too)
Please go and find another audiance where your opinion might be more relevant, here, it is irrelevant
am i embarising myself again?
I am drunk, well a bottle of red wines worth
is the silliest thread ever.. are you posting the same message on hiphop boards with the colours reversed?
and, how is it problematic? peoples record collections are based on the records they like, not what colour the skin around the musicians is/was. if you want to pick yr records based on race instead of quality, noone's stopping you, but its a bit racist innit?
semi-colon closing parenthesis
the black police officers association as racist?
surely people like music based on the sound of it? Are you saying that people first check to make sure that an artist is white, or maybe decide not to like an artist if they're not white?
Would it be better if more black people made indie music, and therefore if people liked these bands then they wouldn't be racist (or whatever term you wish to use, if racist is too strong)? Or is it just because some (white) people don't like r&b/rap? i.e. is your problem that people don't like a style of music (made by people of different pigments), or that of the music that people like, not enough of it is made by people of other colours?
At the start of this thread it was asserted that the white domination of list was ‘problematic’.
Online dictionary suggests - open to doubt or debate, baffling, elusive, knotty.
I think that is fair.
To my mind the issue is that the domination of white middle class music as represented on DiS and in much mainstream music coverage, and to a fairly large extent in my record collection too, is a political issue. It is not wrong. I have never told people to listen to more black music, or put black artists in lists more often. I have tried to make the point that race is a factor.
The fact of the matter is that white-male-dominated lists reflect a white-male-dominated world. There is no simple solution, but such lists should be a reminder that equality and equality of opportunity must be pushed forward – that we have a long way to go. Getting kids of all colours out of poverty and properly educated is essential, and unfortunately policies to achieve those aims will disproportionally benefit the black population (I say unfortunately because it shows that the black population is currently disproportionally deprived). Such lists are, therefore, political and problematic. I am not saying that the lists are wrong or that the journalist who compiles a white-dominated list is racist.
Perhaps black men will never make twee, self-deprecating indie pop in large numbers (I am using indie pop as an example of ‘white music’ – I am not saying lists are or should be full of indie pop). But the fact they don’t now has got to have something to do with the experience of huge swathes of black teenagers which is just not going to lead to them picking up an acoustic guitar and writing songs like ‘emma’s house’.
As well as white-male-dominated lists reflecting a white-male-dominated world, white-male-dominated lists reflect the cultural differences between different groups within society. I think that all right minded people should acknowledge that cultural differences between different groups within society is inevitable, but that it is not particularly desirable. It would be a better world if when the NME announced its two great hopes – one a rapper and one a singer songwriter with an acoustic – that no-one could even to hazard a guess which one was white and which one was black.
There is no simple way forward, no simple answers.
I appreciate creakyknees and orsonwellsrabbit long posts above – I do have a lot of sympathy for both posts, but feel they don’t go far enough. As much as anything I am relieved that there are people on here willing to consider the issues and write a thoughtful reply not post “problematic? for who? and why? and you're an idiot”. A good 50% plus of my reason for posting in a fairly crass way above is to try and prove to myself that there is a political sensibility on this board.
Are you posting the same message on hiphop boards with the colours reversed?
No. The reasons behind this are -
(1) Whilst I love some hip-hop the fact of the matter is that a lot of it is about guns and gangs and acquiring ostentacious material possessions. I am not interested in hearing about these things on a regular basis, especially when sung by mysoginists and homophobes. Clearly this is a sterotype, but it is not an entirely inaccurate one, and certainly not in the mainstream of hip-hop. If hip-hop related to me, my life and my values I would listen to more of it and would more likely to be on a hip hop forum. [Wouldn't music be more interesting if the white experience was reflected more in hip hop and the black experience in punk?]
(2) Assuming I was on a hip hop forum I would not stand up for white under-represented in hip hop lists, because that does not echo a world where whites are downtrodden by blacks and have been for centuries. [I can't believe I am having to spell this out]
An aside. Unfortuantely the black police officers association is probably useful, even necessary. I am unsure that there is a need for a white police officers association.
discusses radiohead, future of the left, les paul, our band could bbq your life, arctic monkeys and the shitty limits. For you, this is problematic.
but i am not going to write about dizzee rascal cos he is black. i'm not advocating tokenism or quotas. i am as much a part of a problematice white-centric middle class indie world as this site is.
*Clearly this is a sterotype (sic), but it is not an entirely inaccurate one.
what is the black experience?
so are you saying you wish punk had more homophobia and hiphop had more mohawks?
i can't work it out, thanks.
no, i am saying that a more equal society would make it harder to assume the colour of the musician based on whether they play punk or hip hop.
there is no single black or white experience of course.
(1) as a music writer, i think you should know, some white people have made some rap songs that were ace, and some black people have made some punk songs which are also ace. YAY WE WON RACISM! YEARS AGO!
(2) but this isn't a Downtrodden World, tis not even a forum for or about the Downtrodden World. I CANT BELIEVE IM HAVING TO SPELL THIS OUT DUDE! this is an indie music themed message board. i should have asked, have you posted the same guff on a political board. you know, why are there more white politicans, more white landowners? that's problematic, this is just trying to guilt people for their tastes, yr using racism as a crutch for yr snobbery.
i refuse to take this thread/implications of my racism/the different coloured police officers association seriously any more.
to slightly paraphrase from blakes 7:
wildeye can't change his mind. he's an idealist, there'd be nothing left.
only, blake wasn't a fucking pathetic message board dramawhore hypocrite wannabe journalist, he was out there IRL fighting till he died for what he believed in regardless of what the cocksuckers on earth thought. and he had a spaceship. you'll never have a spaceship, no matter how many blacks and gays you can save and put in yr safety cage, you psycho.
(1) I do realise that there is some great white rap, and i do realise that there is some great black punk (i am planning on writing about bad brains soon, and the dilema - awesome band but scummy homophobes)
(2) i am not trying to guilt people for their tastes. i don't feel guilty for my tastes which i'd imagine a very similar to many people on here. I am trying to make people recognise that white lists are indicative of something deeper. i apologise for implying, perhaps strongly, that i think racism is a big issue on here. it isn't (though there are a few idiots as there are on any forum). I don't apologise for drawing people's attention to the fact that it is not coincidence that there are majority white lists and a historically racist world, that persists to some extent in politics and the boardroom (etc).
have been allowed to get away with not explaining himself. His opening post reveals nothing about his motives (good or bad) or what he really means by problematic, it could be simple trolling.
Clearly having a preference for white artists does not make one a racist. Nor does having a preference for black artists indicate
that a white person is not a racist (I have known quite a few white racists whose record collections are dominated by black artists).
If these lists are truly problematic it is only in the very widest sense in that they perhaps reveal a world where there is still division between white and black. However, if music taste is such a good barometer of oppression then how would that explain an analysis of a site dedicated to Motown and Stax where you would find lots of white members. Would you draw a wholly different conclusion about society? Which would be right?
Most of us on here are by definition indie-schmindie types which means that we do not follow the dictat of the currently white-male-dominated establishment.
We are not finding bands via the adverts of major labels or their business partners the major radio stations, we get our information via word of mouth and the internet.
Our favourite artists are mostly on labels founded by ordinary people with a passion for music - these labels can be started by people of any colour, particularly now that the technology is so affordable.
Many of us have black friends and we have all been exposed to (and presumably influenced by) a lot of black music and culture during the formative periods of our lives.
And yet we still offer up lists that are largely white dominated, does that reflect an imperfect world or simply that people like what they like?
Sure, it wouldn't some hurt people to widen their horizons but if, and when, they do so they still feel that their initial comfort zone is what they prefer are they to be castigated for this?
Only in a world that is completely homogeneous where everyone has an equal number of black and white friends, equality exists at every level and there are no cultural differences of any kind will you find what you are looking for. It may be a nice ideal (though I'm not sure everyone would agree on that) but to level criticism at a small group of people because our society has so far failed to achieve these dreams seems pretty pointless to me.
im taking this seriously again, fuckkkk
“I suppose the mistake that was made in this thread is that LC shouldn't
have been allowed to get away with not explaining himself. His opening post reveals nothing about his motives (good or bad) or what he really means by problematic, it could be simple trolling.”
“Clearly having a preference for white artists does not make one a racist. Nor does having a preference for black artists indicate that a white person is not a racist (I have known quite a few white racists whose record collections are dominated by black artists).”
“If these lists are truly problematic it is only in the very widest sense in that they perhaps reveal a world where there is still division between white and black. However, if music taste is such a good barometer of oppression then how would that explain an analysis of a site dedicated to Motown and Stax where you would find lots of white members. Would you draw a wholly different conclusion about society? Which would be right?”
You might draw a different conclusion if you just went on a motown site, I don’t know. You do really need to take an overall view, though on this site I am referring to this site. I am not enough of an expert on Motown, but there is probably an argument that black musicians had to stop writing dirty blues about cheating and boozing and start writing happy songs about love in order to gain mainstream white acceptance (this is just a feeling and could be contradicted by some of the more political Motown numbers)
“Most of us on here are by definition indie-schmindie types which means that we do not follow the dictat of the currently white-male-dominated establishment. We are not finding bands via the adverts of major labels or their business partners the major radio stations, we get our information via word of mouth and the internet. Our favourite artists are mostly on labels founded by ordinary people with a passion for music - these labels can be started by people of any colour, particularly now that the technology is so affordable. “
Point taken, but it is easier if your parents are rich, you have a good day job, and you know that your kit will still be in your bedroom when you get home (not stolen). White people, on average, are likely to have these advantages.
“Many of us have black friends and we have all been exposed to (and presumably influenced by) a lot of black music and culture during the formative periods of our lives. And yet we still offer up lists that are largely white dominated, does that reflect an imperfect world or simply that people like what they like?”
A bit of both – what people like and an imperfect world.
“Sure, it wouldn't some hurt people to widen their horizons but if, and when, they do so they still feel that their initial comfort zone is what they prefer are they to be castigated for this?”
No. I apologise if I have come across as castigating for their taste which I fully admit I share.
“Only in a world that is completely homogeneous where everyone has an equal number of black and white friends, equality exists at every level and there are no cultural differences of any kind will you find what you are looking for. It may be a nice ideal (though I'm not sure everyone would agree on that) but to level criticism at a small group of people because our society has so far failed to achieve these dreams seems pretty pointless to me.”
You are probably right there. I suppose as much as anything my posts above – which were perhaps unnecessarily provocative and hastily written – were posted to remind people that we do not live in the perfect world we sometimes assume that we do, and that it is everyone’s responsibility – to some extent at least – to chip away at the imperfections and help us on the endless march to perfection. I am a dreamer.
And yes there is a contradiction between diversity (celebrating and protecting different cultures) and equality / unity .
i fully admit to being an argumentative bastard who can often reply on messageboards in a hasty way without fear of causing provocation. that is wrong. sorry.
maybe my points are a bit OTT, maybe they're oversimplistic, but I think my hearts in the right place and i don't think you're all racists!
i am seriously going to try to not post political stuff on here, and when i do try to keep it to clear, simple and well written.
aww! look at you two.
of all my favourite things to do
the very best is a hug for two
that's until another joins in
big hug for 3 - a larger grin
is that people are fairly broad in their music taste. Ok, people's main area of interest tends to be indie and this is reflected in those lists. However i've been recommended plenty of music from different genres, cultures and traditions by people who love music and want to discover new things. It wouldn't take long to find threads on hiphop, dubstep, mali music, classical etc on this website
For instance, the "Guide to minimal techno" thread is an 800-post monster, and it'd be about twice as long if the move to the new board hadn't got rid of a whole load of replies.
white people have recorded more music?
thats ridiculous and bullshit.
what was the point of that post?
i am interested by DiS policy on banning people who are clearly trolling or racist. Many sites would operate a no-nonsense ban-on-the-spot policy and I am slightly surious why DiS doesn't.
It does genuinely depress me that people as pointless as DR exist. Then again perhaps it'll fall in front of train tonight.
Don't we all love a bit of ironic racism?
whether you like it or not, the music industry by and large controls what gets exposure. why do you think only "bitches n bling" hip hop is brought to the forefront? they're still trying to undermine the black man. so much great music is stolen from black people and marketed through white faces; if you knew the actual writing credits on the horrors last album it'd make your head spin- it didn't just stop at zeppelin. most of you like to think you're hyper conscious warriors vs intolerance but nearly every action you take supports an institutionalised racism, and the fact you're oblivious to the blatant racism that shines through purely white centric lists (as well as the idea that adding black artists would mean having to use hip hop and rnb) shows just how engrained your predjudices really are. i've heard mention of wanting to relate to music that reflects the "white experience"- i'd love to know what the white experience entails, besides terror for everything outside of it
"an industry run by old white racists control what you listen to"
I would doubt this somewhat.
The rest of your post is hilarious.
Was it meant to be?
According to Wikipedia (correct me if this is wrong) Eminem is the biggest selling rap artist in history.
Arguably boy bands are just black soul watered down packaged in bland white bodies to sell to kids.
I don't know to what extent Lazerlife is serious (if at all) but he is not completely without a point.
oops joint biggest
but if black men do its terrible. i mean we all know that it IS funny, but when are black men gonna get the same freedom as eminem!?
Pays them pretty well I would think.
More seriously, who would the other most successful rap artists be? Other than the Beastie Boys - I'm guessing most wouldn't be white.
Although he is I guess the Elvis of rap - isn't he also very talented at what he does? Is it not possible that his position was achieved on merit. Not that I give a fuck about him or much rap to be honest.
I don't see this as being as significant as the wholesale theft of early rock and roll was. But let's say it is. I don't want a fight over that.
I'm not denying that there is massive white dominance in the media, you only have to look at all the young black female actors having facial surgery to look more European. It's symptomatic of problems that are hundreds of years old and still not going away. Frankly I think its appalling but I don't ever think about posting on here to blame it on DiSsers.
As for the homophobia wasn't there quite a deal of outcry against Eminem? That's how I remember it, he was of course always going to be forgiven because he was the goose that laid the golden egg.
I don't care what colour the homophobe is and I don't imagine most people on this board do. In fact a lot of folk on here fall over themselves to pardon such offences from black mouths.
It surprises me that you've found differently.
At the heart of this is the argument who owns a style of music? How much should a new artist have in common with the originators of a style before they are aloud to adopt it? Same colour, same nationality, same region, same town, same street?
Who authorises the permits?
eminem and tupac
Just because someone doesn't point out every five minutes that they're not racist doesn't mean they are racist.
what are the actual writing credits on the horrors last album?
if the thought doesn't make you throw up to much anyhow. i'm sure you'll find your way to the right answer....
i think that there is some truth to your initial post, but in terms of the horrors album are you really saying that the label haven't credited black musicians that helped them write their album. I've done bits of work for xl and this just doesn't seem believable.
i know people in industry jobs who've seen some of the clauses in black musicians contracts. maybe its their fault for doing deals with the devil, but still.. the horrors one was just one example amongst many; i heard something suspicious about a black guy working on the johnny foreigner album
Perhaps I'm being dense, can you explain this one?
im not calling you out, but i'd be interested to hear more. i mean, mebbe in the 60s/70s. elvis and that. and definitely absolutely at the start of Teh Music Biz, but ive never heard of that sort of shit happening nowadays. and i suspect the horrors need to be marketed as writing their own songs and extra musicans are hidden away regardless of colour. im totally intrigued tho. buzz lightspeed sillyhat man? he's like, the right area at least..
were working with a homosexual, maybe he's black as well!
they don't have soul on tap like black guys
I just want to say that this sequence of posts from -dan- deserves greater recognition.
Didn't the first reply answer the post's question already?
I go away for a couple of days and a 170+ thread with potential for massive indie carnage, desperate point scoring and soul searching turns up.
I'm going to go and get a drink and some popcorn and then read this to myself, I hope it lives up to its potential!
it's good stuff, enjoy
it has a whole 'middle class' rant thrown in and some massive conspiracy theory stuff! I love it.
Oh and just for the record:
"ermm...... didn't Throwing Muses have a black bassist? Cos I love them, so I'm not a racialist am I? Oh dear God I better feign an interest in jazz...
*wrings hands some more*"
is my response...
Does he mean anything he says though?
If I knew the answer to this it would be easier for me to decide how much of a favourite to make him.
That's some shit shouldda never bin stole.
But, yeah. Ok, you rule.
Because I'm mixed race and my list would be primarily white acts. Or am I just racist to half of me? Like half of me has to walk on the other side of the road coz i is half-caste like.
lists like pitchfork? Where most of the top songs were black, rap hip hop artists?
Where did the loser go who started this mess?
...that Hip-Hop - like dance music - is largely a singles-based form? Both genres all about hitting on a new sound that blows peoples' heads off in a club rather than putting together cohesive albums. That's why 99 per cent of Hip Hop joints are mostly filler.