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Obviously we know how history played out but what are folk's preferences?
so shoegaze by default even though I only really like mbv
Tad 'Gods Balls' and maybe 'Salt Lick'
Mudhoney 'Superfuzz Bigmuff' and 'Mudhoney'
all still stand up - and tower above most anything really:)
from start to finish.
I can add no educated opinion myself.
I too, much prefer Shoegaze. Got 'Nowhere' by Ride at full blast on the speakers and lovin' it.
but so is a lot of shoegaze. i'll go for shoegaze
I'm including early 90s noiserock and AmRep in this definition of 'grunge'.
Shoegaze is for bedwetters.
there are some great grunge albums and a couple of great grunge bands, but it's always a case-by-case thing, whereas I like the *genre* of shoegaze, even though not every shoegaze album/act will be one that I love.
Put another way: a bad/mediocre shoegaze album will always be more enjoyable (to me) than a bad/mediocre grunge, even if, when we look at the quality end of the scale, I might prefer Siamese Dream to Loveless.
Mellon Collie > Siamese Dream
Isn't Anything > Loveless
Don't know why I felt the need to post this.
but there is no possible version of reality in which MC&tIS could be imagined as better than Siamese Dream.
Which begs the question of why I'm replying to a comment that does not -- and indeed cannot -- exist.
I like Mellon Collie more than Siamese Dream. In terms of percentages I'd go as high as 23% more.
though I'd up the percentage to 65.23.
there are only 3, possibly 4 songs I don't particularly care for from both CDs. Losing any more than 14.286%* of Mellon Collie would be a crime against music.
(*that's right. I actually did the math. I'm not proud.)
79.78%, but then I do think Mellon Collie is an overblown crock of shite.
but the first is pure gold, so that's understandable.
because we have one selection each for the "songs" and one for the "more experimental/technical ability".
Siamese Dream and Isn't Anything = songs
Mellon Collie and Loveless = the other one
Unless you disagree with that evaluation, which would just be weird.
kurt was vastly overrated.
As well as being better, it influenced less terrible bands.
can be found in Silversun Pickups.
when they're not taking for-fucking-ever to get a new record out.
Let's set up a J Mascis/ Kevin Sheilds album where they both try to out effects laden guitarify each other.
check out 'more light' on the j mascis + the fog album of the same name for the above...
HOLY SHIT! This actually happened? Right, I'm off to investigate. If this is a wind up you are a day late buddy.
and it's on spotify.
can I say 'amazing scenes'?
Obviously stuff like Mudhoney and Nirvana is still great, but generally these days I prefer the sound of droney guitars to crunchy shouty stuff.
I figured there'd be way more grunge people here... I like early Ride, a bit of MBV, Cocteau Twins, etc, but there are nowhere near as many great shoegaze bands/records as grunge. I'm not ready to settle into middle age when I can be listening to The Jesus Lizard, Mudhoney, Tad, Babes In Toyland and Melvins.
nor dino jr, for that matter...
Mudhoney are synonymous with grunge, for better or worse. Superfuzz Bigmuff is pretty widely considered as the first proper grunge album. If you're not counting Mudhoney/Dino Jr/any of the 'good' underground bands as grunge and you're talking just Nirvana/Soundgarden/Alice In Chains then I'm probably with you on shoegaze.
what do you think of mudhoney as, if not grunge?
I can't help but see a stylistic difference between mudhoney/dino jr and nirvana/pearl jam/screaming trees/soundgarden/etc. It's partly in the "tone" (irreverence v. angst?) and partly in the song structure and arrangement (pop v. rock?).
It's undoubtedly a highly contentious distinction, and I guess it's premised more on historical events than on formal qualities: for all that bands like mudhoney and dino jr were around well before Nevermind came out (as were, of course, Nirvana and Soundgarden and others), it felt at the time like "Grunge" came into existence -- as a marketing category more than anything else -- when Nevermind, Badmotorfinger, Ten, Gish, etc. came out, and that the name "grunge" was applied retrospectively to mudhoney etc.. It's the same kind of logic that leads to the claim that Kim Salmon and the Scientists "invented" grunge -- which I guess is true enough, but to me there's a significant difference in sound between Kim Salmon, Mudhoney, Dino Jr and Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Alice in Chains, etc.
Still, I don't know that anyone else has seen it in that way...
I don't really think of Swervedriver as shoegaze -- too rock, not "widescreen" enough.
It's all in my head, I know.
rather than a 'sound') it's a pretty shoddy attempt to lump loads of bands together into a scene.
Which is why you can't really suggest mudhoney aren't grunge because, to my ears at least, there isn't really a distinctive grunge sound? Maybe in terms of butch vig production, but that's about it. Soundgarden, Mudhoney, Tad, Nirvana, Melvins, Green River, Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam, Screaming Trees Mother Love Bone etc etc all sound pretty different to me.
just that I never really think of them as grunge (partly for historical and partly for stylistic reasons).
But, you know, agreed 'n' all.
I thought the term grunge was coined pre-Nevermind, and your big 'grunge' releases of the era were more alt-rock. So I kind of think of Mudhoney as grunge and Pearl Jam as...not grunge.
Not that it matters for anything. I like both anyway.
I'm not really familiar with grunge (apart from Nirvana)
always. Especially if you include the more Americana/Psychadelia influenced stuff like The Screaming Trees.
and Afghan Whigs!!
Although it's quite interesting to think that the two scenes were both massivey influenced by Dinosaur Jr and Sonic Youth.
on balance, i think i'd have to go with Grunge, because Melvins > most things.
I've alway found shoegaze really rather...so....sleepyzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
WHEELS TURNING ROUND! LEAVE THEM ALL BEHIND!
Great stuff. And I like 10 seconds of one MBV song. That's pretty rockin'. And I own some swervedriver lps, but I have no idea why. Anyone want them?
because I'm not a fan of grungey music, although shoegaze isn't exactly something I'm greatly in love with either.
grunge is awesome.
here, listen to this: http://open.spotify.com/album/2pIh95tkAQLY42dHkxQRdV
I've added it to my spotify, so I'll be sure to check it out at some point. Is that the best Melvins album then?
and it is seriously good :D
i think Senile Animal is my favourite though
it's the best of their experimental ones, by a fair whack. Though I do love Honky as well.
I can't really decide which Melvins album I like best. The good ones are all really great. I fucking love Senile Animal for starters.
but then there's Stag, Ozma/Gluey Porch Treatments, Colossus of Destiny, Houdini, Senile Animal....All equally great in their own way.
but i think it's because it was the first melvins album i bought, so it's got a special place in my heart. Gluey Porch Treatments is just immense too.
I choose GRUNGE.
Love Mudhoney: hate Slowdive.
who has a better indebted bands? (NOTE. i'm not actually calling them shoegaze/grunge bands, just bands who were influenced by some certain elements of the genre)
Grunge - Silversun Pickups, Pulled Apart By Horses, KASMs (ignoring all the horrible, horrible Staind/Puddle of Mudd)
Shoegaze - A Place to Bury Strangers, Deerhunter, Big Pink, Maps?
And that was three Silversun Pickups songs, and they were ruddy awful.
I don't hold no truck with no legacy arguments.
Kiwis Against Sand Mining? Korean American Sharing Movement? Knesset, Army, Shin Bet, Mossad?
I feel so out of touch...
bringing up new bands in a topic squarely aimed at two genres which peaked aroung 1992 wasn't an informed decision.
just so I can take regular trips back to my heyday, and you go and screw it all up by mentioning bands less than fifteen years old.
Next thing you know you'll throw fucking BritPop into the mix and ruin everything!
do you mean?
I have no idea either.
quite good grungey shrieky girl rock, they've got one of test icicles in, i think.
grunge + girls shrieking + someone from the Test Icicles
i just prefer it cos i don't like soap
Having lived through the times and having gone to the gigs (and bought the t shirt) here's my thoughts. Aside from MBV so called Shoegaze bands were pretty tame live. I saw Slowdive, Chapterhouse, Ride, the Charlottes, Lush et al and it wasn't pretty. Sure you could have a fun night flicking your fringe from side to side and yes all these bands had a tune or two - but realistically it wasn't til they all went slightly baggy that they started cutting it on the local indie disco and actually getting popular. And that was due to the dual attack of the Stone Roses and Happy Mondays. I give you Pearl by Chapterhouse! Ride... god they were dull live. The shuffling 'Baggy beat' was as influential on the shoegaze scene as the pedal hopping
Imagine then going to see Chapterhouse play a not very good set one week and then go and see Mudhoney literally tear the roof off a venue the next. This isn't personal taste this is fact:) British shoegaze bands were just limp compared to what was coming in from the US (aside from as I say MBV and Loop who stood WAY outside Shoegaze on their own frankly laughing at the bowl cut kiddies pissing around with a bunch of effects pedals they didn't know what to do with - Loop ruled then and they rule now - and Spacemen 3 of course).
Go out and buy the recent Rob Da Bank compiled Sci Fi Lo Fi to see what I mean. The songs just don't stand up. Ultra Vivid Scene (from NYC so not shoegaze) totally make the UK tracks seem pathetic. What on earth Dinosaur Jr are doing on their I don't know... but the UK bands certainly attempted to rip off their sonic attack. And failed.
Grunge blew the doors off and shoegaze politely asked if it open the window to let some air in. No contest really.
I love shoegaze but it's gets boring REALLY quick.
Also, singing along FTW!
i i iiii'm still alive, heyyy eeeheyyyy
ALLL MY FRIENDS ARE RED AND BROWN!
far from my thing. But it's OK.
...but I don't agree with much of it.
Of course Nirvana and their legacy = by far the most important historical event of the two but after Nirvana, there was almost nothing worth its salt. Grunge changed a whole load of things, the press loved it and lauded it up and sold it (and continue to sell it) to the youth of the day and the days since.
This didn't happen with Shoegaze which the press seemed to hate. Shoegaze existed despite the press which ultimately made any band with Shoegaze tagging experience very difficult times. My Bloody Valentine being big enough old enough and epic enough to resist the constant negativity.
Slowdive / Chapterhouse / Ride poor live? Oh dearie me, that is quite comprehensively wrong in my opinion. You can also add Adorable into the mix - they were sensational live, Kitchens Of Distinction had few peers with their best live shows especially in the early days. Those early KoD shows were stunning - and I'm sorry, to say the Shoegazing ilk was dull live is quite categorically wrong. Early Pale Saints gigs even Boo Radleys before their accessible times were utterly magnificent.
Would I rather go and see Mudhoney? No flippin way. 45 minutes of stodge rock and rock rather than the startling innovation of Nirvana? Once you've seen "the roof blown off" a venue by a band playing with no tunes then I suggest your boredom threshold is different to mine. (Something like The Swans though - that's a different ball game...)I cannot listen to anything part from Touch Me I'm Sick by Mudhoney. Everything after Bleach by Nirvana is still wonderful.
Chapterhouse doing their Loop / Spacemen 3 inspired Die! Die! Die! wig out is still one of the highlights of my gig going days, and the incendiary guitars of the day are making a comeback in the 00s I see across a number of bands at the moment.
Baggy beat heralded a production led death for Shoegaze, trying to crush the pervasive Happy Mondays sound of the day into Shoegaze was ok for a few tracks but ultimately left it with nowhere to go.
Loop didn't stand way outside other Shoegaze - they were embraced and part of the scene - I was there I did buy the t-shirts go to the gigs and buy the flexi discs!
Still it's all opinion, I will defend the lasting and positive effect of Shoegaze now as I did back in the day. Luckily these days my views seem to have more support. The colour and dazzle of Shoegaze against the black and white dirge of almost everything Grunge? I know what camp I'll revel in!
Cheers Nickd:) Cool to debate this.
It all kinda comes down to a sort of aesthetic discussion as to what 'grunge' (stupid term then - ridiculous term now!) and 'shoegaze' are. But I guess you've got to discuss these 'scene's within these catch all terms which were partly journo coined.
Nirvana were great. Great live at the start - never caught them after their 2nd Reading Headlining performance which has passed (wrongly) into history as being legendary probably by folks who weren't there. It was a cold, wet and miserable day at Reading. Yeah the line up was good - Mudhoney, Melvins, Nick Cave, Screaming Trees etc - but really hard work standing in a foot of mud for 10 hours...)
You're right; your average 'kid - journo - parent - 20-something' may know the term grunge - the % who will have heard of 'shoegazing - the scene that celebrated itself or Dreampop (if you're from the US?) will be a hell of a lot less.
The press invented the 'shoegaze' scene - and yeah turned on it a year or two later. I've got a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 91 - post Reading with an article penned by Russell 'Moose' (remember Moose?- they were 'shoegazers' for 5 minutes until they went all C&W - great band) were he critiques all the bands under the banner 'Is Shoegazing Dead?' - I guess it WAS all pretty tongue in cheek:)
You're correct - for better or worse 'grunge' changed stuff. For about a year or two - until Brit Pop (major label funded 'indie') barged in.
Defining grunge - Screming Trees, Tad, earlyish Nirvana, Mudhoney and Soundgarden is 'grunge'. Melvins too. Tongues in cheeks here.
Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and Stone Temple Pilots are not grunge. They're rock/metal.
Sorry but where we'll have to disagree on is that those bands were 'great ' live - this is something me and my old mates argue about to this day - ha ha ha. That's just personal taste. Ride pre-Noweher were alright... but I saw them blown off stage by Mercury Rev a year or two later.
Boo Radleys though? F****** rubbish live - they started off ok ended up writing songs that sounded like f***** car commercials. Wake Up Boo? Jesus christ what an awful awful band. Pale Saints I grant you had some tunes.
Mudhoney - live - they just embarrassed the competition. Again we'll have to disagree. But yup everything Nirvana turned their hand to was good. But Mudhoney are releasing great great albums 20 years later. But if you didn't like 'em them I'll leave you to your Adorable re-issues;)
Chapterhouse were ok - but got sucked into the drum loop / baggy nonsense. Nice fellas I grant you.
Loop I believe stood outside the 'shoegaze' circus just by being skull crushingly loud and writing psych masterpieces and drawing on the post punk sounds of the Pop Group, PIL elements of dub and krautrock. Especially on their last album A Gilded Eternity... To mention them in the same post as Adorable is tantamount to heresy! Ha ha ha! They were / are still better than all those scenester bands. Better than MBV maybe....
Sure folks who went to Ride gigs went to Loop gigs - but no way did they tagged with being shoe gaze - they stood out on their own. As did Spacemen 3.
Ya roots of Shoegaze can be trace back to early Cure, Cocteau's and Siouxsie + ya Eno and influence of JAMC and pedal rock from US (Dinosaur Jr etc).
Give me the power and abandon of grunge over the introspective whimsy of shoegaze anyway.
Medicine: yay or neigh?
How refreshing that we can take opposing views without trying to knock seven bells out of each other.
I would still disagree that Spacemen 3 (especially) were outside the shoegazing scope. Loop too. I know for a fact that Chapterhouse were directly influenced by both (I believe there's a Chapterhouse cover of a Spacemen 3 song). I think The old Spacemen 3s (and Loop) were supported by Chapterhouse at the After dark in Reading (although the memories could be fading here but I'm pretty sure!)Spacemen 3s style and songs were a direct influence on shoegazing in my opinion and Loop took that influence (as well as bands like Suicide) to levels not explored by many other bands you are correct.
The Boo Radleys were catergorically NOT rubbish live in the early days - I am certainly not talking Wake Up Boo times, but in the early days they played with a stupendous wall of noise JAMC style with the songs buried beneath sheets of huge guitars...Utterly glorious. Their songwriting talents were bent the way of Creation after shoegaze faded and they ended up playing radio friendly dullness like Wake Up Boo, and Its Lulu before imploding.
(I wouldn't claim Moose in any way as being a decent band of the times.)
The roots of Shoegaze (although not widely acknowledged as such) certainly lie with the trail blazing Cocteau Twins, and much more tenuosly with The Cure and The Banshees (all huge favourites of mine in my youth)
I suppose I enjoy an incenduary guitar and a song more than the clatter batter dirge of grunge. I prefer my harder edged stuff like At The Drive In, or Salem, or Early Swans, or Shellac even. I don't like the Bleach era Nirvana I like almost everything they did afterwards and the In Utero stuff was just fantastic. I guess people may now say this is not grunge.
In the same way that the Industrial label now covers everything from Throbbing Gristle to Nine Inch Nails so as to become fairly meaningless the same applies to grunge.
Medicine? Saw them a couple of times I Think - very enjoyable indeed live, less convincing but still pretty decent on CD.
I reckon me and Smallstone will both be eagerly anticpating the release of the last two Loop cds in April! (common ground!)