Boards

While the ratio at gigs for example is very often unbalanced, as we're saying, I do still see plenty there that don't seem to have any particular discomfort and I just can't understand the idea that they've supposedly had to overcome some kind of big man-made obstacle to go there, but way beyond that, I really don't understand what atmosphere there is that 'discourages women from even getting into a band', considering this pretty much consists of sitting on your own and listening to some music. I was going to say that, well, I can't help but think it might be a bit self-defeating let such percieved obstacles stand in the way of your enjoyment of music, and it sounds a bit like these women constructing their own barriers to their own enjoyment by some strange idea that men won't accept them when most happily and eagerly will - it almost sounds like believing they should aspire - but then without knowing what it's like to be a woman I suppose I probably haven't really grasped the weight of it all.

I know I'm probably pretty ignorant on this whole issue, but I just find this a difficult concept to understand, and while my replies here have maybe been a bit dickish, I often don't really think that what I perceive as the slightly confrontational nature of a lot of Wishpig's posts in this arena of discussion generally are very helpful to developing the discussion. I think this approach discourages a lot of men from engaging with the issue of feminism and asking questions which is a real shame, and clearly detrimental to the intended cause. Granted having looked back her first post in this thread was pretty reasonably, it was posted under a different name that I didn't realise was her.

I've not agreed with the 'genetics' part of this argument, I don't really have the required knowledge of genetics to even pass judgement on this one way or the other, and I'm really quite interested in all sides of the discussion here. You've explained it in a much more reasoned way, which I appreciate, but I'm still finding it a bit difficult to understand in terms of music, to be honest. I mean, I completely understand the idea that females playing music are, unfortunately, treated a lot differently to males, but, I don't know, I've never really known any women who are into music to be treated any differently (other than perhaps in terms of "there really aren't enough girls like you", which ties in with the thread's opening question, but I can understand might sound a bit patronising from a female perspective). I can understand the social board being called misogynistic perhaps, but I'd have to say I've rarely picked up on anything like that on the music board. I suppose it's more than likely that I'm just a bit dense and idealistic and don't pick up on such things, in which case, well, I apologise.

This is far too long for such an uninformed post, sorry.

Take two forms of music that started at a similar time - indie rock & hip-hop. Hip-hop has been very successful with female crowds and hip-hop & R&B clubs and gigs are full of women... except 'underground' hip-hop, where you'll find the female presence diminishing.

So, I've assumed before that it is not that gig environments are unwelcoming, but that smaller number of women knew about the acts in the first place. Take for example when I went to see the xx before they hit the big time, the crowd was almost entirely male. When I went to see them after they'd hit on Radio 1, the crowd was almost 50/50 split. There wasn't a lack of appreciation for the music, but a lack of knowledge for it's existence.

It's real life examples like this that all alternative music lovers have experienced that have led many befuddled men throughout this thread to conclude that 'men are just geekier/more obsessive about things like this', a conclusion that (at least with regards to genetics) is probably entirely wrong. However, what we certainly do have here is an observable phenomenon which *does* deserve to be explored and discussed & in this discussion we can help expel gender myths & progress on the issue. I don't have the answer to the question, or I wouldn't have re-asked it, but I don't fancy being shot down as a misogynist for saying that I'd happily welcome more of a female presence in the alternative music community.

he used the correct their.

I think it's quite an interesting question (obviously worded slightly provocately in the OP but surely it's been reiterated in better terms plenty of times here since) and I really don't think you can just dismiss it with "Yeah, you know why? BECAUSE OF MEN, THAT'S WHY." It's really not the answer to every fucking thing, is it?

Quite a pleasant read though

there was a young lass, 15/16 ish....sort of twee in an enid blyton type way...walking around looking at albums and writing down in her notebook the ones that she wanted to remember and buy in the future.

this made me love her in an older brother type way and want to be mates with her and go on adventures. cheers.

is that she's always accusing me of being a misogynist

for as long as i can remember...Does all the faking qualify me for some sort of Oscar?

an interesting point, since I remember awhile back a french band called Fordamage were touring the UK and asked the promoter to put on a ladies night where girls could get in for free simply because they noticed that the amount of girls at gigs they were playing was significantly less than gigs they played in their native country.

In hindsight it did make me wonder if there is someting to be said about the gender divide when it comes to slightly more niche music and the possible cultural/social reasons for that.

I can't believe this is still going. What does one have to do to qualify as a person who 'really' likes music anyway?