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You want them to be able to make a living right?
Actually use this if you sign up:
EMUSIC 4 EVA
to live on emusic payments.
No musician is going to be able to buy shreddies with no megaupload payments.
My songs are on eMusic. Don't know if anyone's downloaded them yet though. I've still not set up a user account either.
Very little ca$h but y'know - tis a start!
If people are willing to pay a minimal amount for someone's music, then at least that person stands a chance of making a living somehow.
expecting to make money from making music is highly unrealistic therefore bitching about it is annoying, if you wanna make money get a real job, if you dont then be a musician, or do both, whatever man
or hobby it is not a job, it is a form of expression, that's like saying thinking is a job or smiling.
The reason i left PRS was for this very reason, bands moaning about not earning enough, and business' being closed down due to extortionate licence fees to play the music of the bands that weren't earning enough.
People who make music will do it regardless of whether they get paid!
i inferred this from the phrase "You want them to be able to make a living right?"
You're a bit dim, huh?
that gave it away
if there's a record that i wasn't interested enough in to want to pay for (either in a physical or digital format) but would be happy to obtain for free, what difference does it make? i would never pay money for this record so the musicians haven't lost a sale but instead have gained a listener - i guess it depends whether or not you think musicians are making music for people to hear or for people to buy
You're not either a flower-faced hippy skipping through fields of happy listeners or a cigar-chomping fat cat.
signing in. I agree wholeheartedly with tuxdogg.
it implies you have some kind of right to hear this music. you don't. it's the artists, and they choose how it is to be distributed. if this is a profit-making commercial venture, then that's their decision.
it implies that you have the ability to. which you do.
its a one off payment for life membership
why on earth would you leave?
selling their 'licences' to obtain the cash for 'royalties'
I really don't feel the need to do much defending of my DIY / music-as-art credentials :D
BUT: It is not unreasonable for someone to expect to make a living from music if they have a self evident listener base. It's not a simple dichotomy between people doing it for the love and people doing it for money.
The point is, people can take some measure responsibility for supporting the bands they love in making music. It's not a lot to ask. People have this idea that downloading is victimless, and that they're getting one over on money-grabbing record labels, but it's not true. Smaller labels support musicians no end, and they need income to do that. There is no money-grabbing involved. It's a survival issue, basically.
Something philosophers and models would agree on, perhaps.
mainly from smaller bands at smaller venues, i think some musicians deserve financial reward for their art and if it helps get them a few beers and a bit more cash to record and travel then fair play.
However i think that people who think a job is making music or kicking leather around a field,or flicking paint at a canvas or standing in front of a camera and repeating words written down for you are mistaken, yes it is a distraction much like work, but ultimately it is done as a leisurely exercise, expression or a pastime.
In every way.
A job is anything you can get paid for doing.
You seem to be suggesting some kind of merit/worth structure within which, say, pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet is more "real" than kicking a ball around a field.
And suggesting that everyone in the entertainment / sports industries are havin' a laugh getting paid for what they are doing at all.
So musicians can't work hard enough to deserve a wage now?
"A job is anything you can get paid for doing." isn't true. you can not get paid for working.
You don't feel strongly enough about your favourite band to be making a living from their music to part with the price of a pint for their album?
That is all.
So, so much.
Making music is a perfectly legitimate trade and has been since the dawn of time.
Comparing making music and performance to 'thinking or smiling' is utterly preposterous. What an incredibly stupid and naive thing to say! Hahahahaaaaa!
admittedly, you only get to choose between artists on the roster, but hey - theres some good stuff there!!
Also, check out "Violet Hour" for you indie rock kids, the EP will be with us in a few weeks, and its well worth your time.
I whole heartedly endorss R&R!
to download leagal stuff as well ;)
emusic looks wicked I might sign up ome day if I get a bigger hard drive, I mean if you keep buyin stuff on emusic you are gona run outa space aint ya?
I have more room for CD's in my house...
It's 250gb though... most of the space is full of film which has been exported for YouTube but which I'm hanging on to on the off chance any of the bands want it at higher quality for a DVD or something.
Pretty annoying. I could just delete it all... I still have the tapes. I think.
I am always dleating stuff I feel I dont need anymore, but I would rather keep all the music I bought, it seems like a waste otherwise.
Get an external hard drive!
I keep gettin excited and downloadin rediculessly massive DJ mixes that doesnt help things at all on my computer heheh
I've heard that one before.
First they say "it's guilt free downloading". They'll tell you you're actually *helping* your favourite artists. It's almost as if you're gonna be best friends with them. It goes ok for a few months. Then BAM! Clamydia.
But they no longer accpet maestro payments, and paying a subscription on a credit card is stupidity, so I'll have to cancel
Yeah I had a problem with my debit card. I have a pre-pay Mastercard now for stuff like this.
but they don't seem very forthcoming in telling you how much it all is. Can someone give me a basic lowdown of prices please?
I probably should have looked a bit before asking a lazy question.
I was going to do a copy/paste but the formatting went to hell, so did a screenprint instead. I've been a member for about 4 years now and can't really recommend it enough - if you've got varied tastes you'll never run out of amazing music to download and it'll expand your horizons no-end.
I don't see the difference
Fine it's my money.
Going onto a credit card I already have debt on? No thanks.
and am loving it, in that it's helping me download some albums I may not have taken a risk on before/splashed out much money on. So that is good.
But I love cds, and I'm a bit apprehensive that emusic will just make me want to download lots of albums instead of buying them, just because they're so cheap. So, I want to still buy cds of stuff I definitely know I like, but I'm expecting it's a slippery slope to downloadom. Or another small dilema is downloading an album on emusic, and loving it so much that i want it on cd, but don't really want to pay for it twice kinda. Maybe if shops/sites could have an emusic discount, where you get it for that little bit cheaper if you already own it. yeah. that'd be good for me thanks.
I want to support the bands by buying something...
I admit to downloading a lot of torrents, and I think the only download I've ever paid for was In Rainbows (I paid 1p, but bought the CD). I only buy CDs of bands I love as I don't have a great deal of money, and if I'm going to buy anything music-related, I'd rather spend it on gig tickets and merch. Is that a really bad stance to have? I remember reading that bands profit a lot more from merch than anything else...true?
Also, I'd like to use eMusic, but it's really offputting that they only accept credit cards.
how much cash money do they make per song/album in comparison to if you bought the album from amazon? How about direct from the label. You're in a better position than me to say but it's quite a lot less, right?
I don't think it's a totally undubious way of supporting the artist, but more a token gesture. Does that make it alright? Not exactly
And minority / up 'n' coming bands and labels need support. For people who don't want to pay loads for something as intangible as an MP3, this is a way to show support.
but i disagree that it's "guilt free"
I do support the bands i love, but i'm perfectly happy 'guilt' downloading thanks.
I actually had to cancel my subscription for a while as I had so much music I didn't get a chance to listen to it all properly.
Do you think: "it's okay, plenty of people will buy it anyway, so it doesn't matter if I download, I'm a bit broke"?
although i have downloaded a lot of music illegally in the past, i won't have bought nearly as many albums as I have if I had gone squeaky clean. Illegal downloading has actually made me spend *more* on music. Stick that in your business model and smoke it.
So that just doesn't hold up.
It's not as black and white as that.
And nothing utopian, either.
What's your beef again?
i just think your view on 'illegal' downloading is a little limited, thats all.
" is a quotion mark. ta.
Music somehow managed to continue for a` fair few decades before downloading was invented, and there was no lack of interest then.
oh hang on that was supposed to kill music too
Take your words back out of my mouth please.
saying that people should feel guilty for not paying bands through downloads
it's hardly the case that every musician from old times was able to scrape a living out of it back then either
The point is, say there's an emerging musician who would probably sell a few thousand records if everyone who liked them bought it, and be able to subsist whilst making the next record...
... but actually sells a few hundred largely due to downloading, while the 'fans' think they'll make money from seeing them live and buying merch, which basically doesn't happen because they are not Prince and don't get tonnes of sold out gigs anyway, and can't afford to get merch done because the record didn't sell.
there is no way of measuring the impact of people downloading this imaginary record on the number it sells
more people would buy it. Like: orange juice sales fall if it was available on fountains at every street corner. Doesn't take a genius to work that one out.
id be like no way fuck the man (mr tropicana)
of people still buying sunpride, guilt-free juice, supporting the fruits you love
It was given out to young children in the sixties and early seventies. And let me tell you, young man, it nourished the small children who would go on to become the Clash and the Specials, among others. So lets hear no more dissing of free orange juice.
Musicans / labels / fans need to adapt.
To say we managed without downloading for a fair few decades is a silly argument.
It's a fact.
"peer-to-peer" as it was through tape trades etc, same principle as downloading for free just with a different technological bent
I was a master at pressing STOP just as the DJ spoke, and hit REC+PLAY before the first note was played.
you won't get people to stop downloading illegally buy waving the 'fuck, i'm better than you' flag from way up on yr high horse.
It just annoys me that good bands get fucked over by their listeners. I think they deserve better.
"getting fucked over" by their listeners - some are surely just glad to have listeners
What band wouldn't want to make a living from doing music? Most musicians dream of that. And why wouldn't they?
are attention-seeking is pretty naive, i certainly wouldn't want to paint anyone as a clown but isn't this a huge aspect of being a performer of any kind? even the denial of being attention-seeking carries an implicit seeking of attention
You argue like a girl.
thats a rather sexist thing to say john, and didn't you initiate this different conversation by bringing attention-seeking into it? do you expect everyone on this thread to ignore the flow of the discussion as it develops when you say so? you accused me of painting bands as attention-desperate which is still relevant to my point that not every musician is bothered about money, man what a fucking gip
is just totally different from talking about how downloading changes the ways musicians can make a living from music!
You were saying that the attention gained through free downloading is valuable, because ultimately it plays out that more people end up putting their money where their mouth is and buying something / paying into a gig. Which is fair comment, but I don't think it holds up - from experience. Especially on low-level / niche releases that don't have a budget behind them to push them to that stage.
albums, singles songs or whatever are recorded performances too, putting this out in the world invites people to pay attention to this performance. some bands aren't bothered about people paying to experience these performances and simply like the attention and some are bothered
I've already addressed this hollow, lazy, unrealistic "chain of interest" elsewhere.
(oops caps lock)
I wonder what percentage of your CD collection ended up there without a PR person being involved?
should i feel guilty? these dudes are self-confessed millionaires
full disclosure i signed up for the 25 free songs deal and couldn't find anything i wanted to download from there mainly because the rap and house selection they have is D.I.R.E.
Def Jux, Stones Throw, anticon, Rhymesayers and Nature Sounds are all on emusic - what kind of rap are you after?
"if you don't care then keep stealing"
The problem is there's far too many scambags out there that steal as they feel they are entitled to it or can somehow justify it in their mind as ok with some half arsed rationale. Some people are just selfish in that respect.
As for merch at gigs, in the last year I've certainly gotten the impression here in France that the small bands can't sell anything anymore, be it CDs, T-shirts...
I've heard many people at gigs bragging about having downloaded the album(s) of the band they came to play and don't even take a look at the merch stand. And in a free gig !
This idea that people buy merch to kind of make up for downloading the album for free is bollocks.
I often buy vinyl if the band is clearly making up expenses from their merch, or if they're an overseas touring band or something.
Next: Bobby Grindrod presents "The best prehistoric recorded music... ever!"
bunch of lowbrowed neanderthals if I ever saw 'em... "Ug! New single! Urggghh..."
I GRASPED A NETTLE
thus i download. people with money...NO EXCUSE. x
Illegally downloaded music is so far down the list, if you're going to start feeling guilty about your financial choices you'll surely have to become a tramp, hermit or screwed.
I give loads of money to my landlord, and all landlords are bastards (he's not that bad like, but Peter Laughner said so and I'll go with him) so I should feel guilty about that?
I sometimes shop in tescoes eat mcdonalds drink coca cola wear cheap mass produced clothes take cheap flights etc etc. Should I start feeling guilty here?
Don't even get me started on tax and the government vis a vis foreign policy, human rights etc etc etc.
Something about the (admittedly tiny) value of my labour for a CEO and investors I strongly suspect to be utterly objectionable.
emusic is morally equivalent to giving £2 a month to Oxfam and Greenpeace. You're making a difference (to musicians, to global poverty, to the environment) that is so close to 0 it might as well be 0. A consumerist purchase which is worth it should it make you happier, and absolutely not if it won't.
Where possible (and possibility is limited by my finances as much as anything else is) I do buy physical merchandise of new/current bands I like. I like doing so. And if I had the cash I'd be far more supportive of obscurist re-issuers. But I don't so I don't.
I get all my music via promos, my E-music account, MySpace, free downloads, buying vinyl off small bands and borrowing stuff. I very rarely download stuff illegally, but I've got no problem with anyone who chooses to do so. Steve Albini says it's fine afterall.
From my experience...
People in bands - don't care at all about illegal downloads.
People who work for record labels - flap about it.
from my experience.
I steal alot of music and don't think it is *that* wrong, the vast majority of bands I like I would have heard otherwise and I think in the long run bands make money out of me liking them, as I will go to gigs and buy some of their records if I really like them. I think the increased fanbase must offset some of the losses
Music seems healthier than ever, bands I consider 'small' are playing huge venues, I don't know the economics of gigs but surely they must make money (suppose a problem is the labels dont see any of this though).
I think any art is different from other products and should be availible in some form freely, its important for culture and a persons access shouldn't be limited by their wealth because that leads to a cultural inequality.
Things have changed, I think downloading has invigourated music, lots of people out there making music because they are inspired rather than seeing it as a career.
I think to encourage sales bands should really make an effort to make their releases special, so that having the mp3 is not the same, e.g. I will buy anything phil elvrum releases because they are not just good songs but good objects and I wouldnt feel I really 'had' the album if I only downloaded it.
i pay to go to gigs and buy merch there instead. the REAL murderers are A&R people who always insist on getting into gigs for free. and then kick up a fuss when they're not on the list and have to part with four precious pounds. jesus christ, no-one cares that you're "meant to be" on the list, give me a fiver or get the fuck out of my queue.
I'm with you on A&R people and 'freeloaders' in general. It's a big leap from that to "let's all not pay for music"...
(mostly a valid one - most gigs I go to I'm working on the band in some way or other)
IT ISN'T AN EITHER/OR SITUATION. I HATE THIS ARGUEMENT SO MUCH.
do you buy cds any more? Or, probably what I mean to ask, do you ever by cds of albums that are also on emusic?
I feel that I may start buying less cds because of emusic, and that will mean less money to the bands surely. Does emusic just steal/tempt cd buyers instead of illegal downloaders?
eMusic got me paying for music again.
People have got to stop thinking everything is free. I held the view anyway and it was only reinforced when I actually got to know some musicians and saw the sharp end of it. I run two bands' websites and one of them has an album out next Monday. I did a Google search for album reviews and found only 10 pages of torrent sites. And one review. Which was in The Sun of all places.
It's funny how Lars Ulrich got so much stick over this. Well, not that surprising because that film showed him to be a bit of a plum, PLUS he went about it in a REALLY bad way. But the fact that he didn't need the money actually backed his case up rather than destroying it for me. It was easier to believe that he really didn't think it was right for someone else to do what they wanted with what was his, when it was hardly like bootlegging Metallica was the difference between whether he could afford that 10th Rolls Royce or not.
along the lines of "why shouldn't I, seeing as the rest of the world is fucked too?"
Make a small difference somewhere.
illegal downloads help people get into music kind of falls flat when you can listen to virtually every band or bedroom artist on myspace these days. generally hearing a bands' best five tracks gives you a pretty strong idea if you like them or not. it's nice to have some surprises when you get a full album anyway.
i haven't downloaded music illegally for around eight years, not because i have any particular moral issues with it, but because things like last.fm and myspace have made trying something new incredibly easy without actually taking up any space on a pc or cd rack.
i'm with dr. brainlove on this one.
really is. the potential of the site excites me so much, but as it stands currently there are loads of really annoying gaps in their databases.
although these mostly come from indie labels, which is pretty stupid.
but i just think downloads are worthless, and i don't want to pay for them.
You're paying for SOUND.
Since when was SOUND worthless?
an album is a package, a whole, a complete entity that provides an experience beyond sound. can you really imagine Unknown Pleasures without that sleeve? or OK Computer or Loveless or whatever?
besides, purely coming from a practical point of view physical formats are better. i have a CD player and i like to listen to CDs at home. and a physical format is way more future-proof - the way storage capacity keeps rising, in 10 years i won't have to encode my CDs as mp3s to go on my ipod, i'll be able to put lossless music on it.
to some extent. There's a deeper issue here than thieving pirate freeloader types versus starving artists; namely that music in its most basic form IS free (similar to what thingsthatfly was saying up the page). The monetisation (is that a word) of the music biz is a fairly artificial thing, and it seems to be a model that the bottom is falling out of now that the rules have changed. Music still costs a lot to make and distribute, but without the need for physical media its perceived value has dropped to nothing.
And I don't really think you can blame modern freeloader culture for that; because to people in general (ie. not those who frequent these boards) music - that's pure music; sound, not CDs - isn't something worth spending money on. Or much of it anyway. I doubt very much of the medieval peasantry spent it's meagre income going to lute recitals, but they'd have a listen when a bard came wandering through.
The proposition seems to be to attach value to sound rather than physical media in order for things to continue the way they are; and I think that's asking too much outside of a select few.
Aside from all this arguing (I have Laryngitis and the shouting would make me hoarse), this thread inspired me to get an emusic trial. I nominally chose the 14.99 a month subscription.
With my 35 tracks I had enough to get a few things I have been after for a while but wasn't sure about parting three lots of about a tenner of real money for:
The War on Drugs
The selection is pretty good but already I can see some pretty big gaps (Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds & Grinderman were the first two albums I searched for, no joy). Therefore I can see emusic complementing, rather than entirely replacing, my existing CD buying and pirating habits.
As an aside, the problem about downloads is that they're great for iPod/computer speaker listening but I have a really decent medium-end audiophile setup in the main room and even decent VBR rips sound inadequate compared with original CD red book audio masters.