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... Whats the deal with that?
as when record labels dont let bands release 5 albums on different labels around the same time.
that's because the band have signed their souls over to the label though. We ain't signed owt.
if your band doesn't expect to be paid.
I think it's a pretty standard clause for big bands, but shouldn't really apply to smaller groups (not to make assumptions, I've no idea what band you're in) - I'd just tell them you won't do the gig on those terms. Are they making you sign some sort of contract?
it will only be our second gig. It's not like we've got any fans or anything. Nobody outside of our Facebook friends list knows who we are. I don't think there'd be any detrimental effect whatsoever to this guy's gig if we played some others beforehand. Je ne comprends pas!
Out of curiosity?
in Bristol. We really really want to play the gig as it's as support to a fairly established local act. I'm sure there is a good reason for us not being able to play any others, I'd just like to know what it is exactly...
Essentially the guy's just trying to make sure your mates only come to the gig he's putting on to boost numbers and sales behind the bar.
If you play two days before they assume you'll split your crowd. If you are sure a load of your mates are going to come to this gig regardless then just play wherever you want beforehand.
that sounds really suspect - the only time I've had to deal with this was with some awful pay-to-play promoters I dealt with in my old band, who insisted on contracts etc. to make themselves appear important. Personally I'd avoid dealing with any promoter who's like that.
it's a standard clause most promoters have (which, in my experience, is rarely adhered to anyway) just out of common courtesy that the band won't play another gig close to the event because it could possibly affect the numbers through the door. the exceptions promoters don't USUALLY care about are foreign bands who want to make their journey a bit more worthwhile... but then that's usually just for london gigs cos of the sheer number of people who live here.
if the contract also states you cannot play any gigs for a set amount of weeks after that booking?
So if you play the gig and then announce five gigs the next week they don't care because clearly that hasn't affected if people come to this gig.
we got stuffed by a band last week who had a gig a few days after ours (which we didn't know about), which they were publicising more.
but not amongst good promoters - I can't remember the last time I was made to do this, not even when we've played larger venues with established bands. The idea of tethering a very small (see art's comment up there^) to just one gig in two months in the infancy of their career smacks of selfishness in the least and almost spite at the worst. It's not as though they'll have a huge fanbase yet, is it? If you're putting on a night and you're struggling with numbers so badly that you insist that a band that's doing only their second gig prevent themselves for doing any others for a month either side (that's the standard I'm assuming as it's all I've encountered) in the vain hope that a few extra people show up because of that, you should probably stop putting on shows.
'amongst good promoters'.
I think we may be talking at cross purposes here - I'm talking about (and this is purely from my own experience) being told that you can't play any other shows in town for a month before, and a month after, the show in question, which seems crazy for a small band. I can understand that if you've booked a band with a reasonable fanbase (ie. beyond just friends and family) you wouldn't want them to play too close to your show, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here - art's band aren't in that position yet.
it usually just varies from band to band and it's sometimes difficult to tell... with a band like art_vandelay's who don't have a fanbase yet, it's not gonna make any difference to either promoter.
all we've done with bands where we think it would make a big difference (if we've found out in enough time!) is to just move the show to a later date.
anyway like others have said, the thing is just there in a 'contract' (or in paul's case, an unwritten 'rule') as a common sense reminder. some bands will pull in shitloads of people with every gig they do. i had the rakes on when they were a baby band and they had something like 3 other london gigs that month including one two days before mine, and they still pulled in loads of people to my gig.
Friends aren't like fans: they come to see you and mutual friends for a chat and your band happens to be playing, and because they like you they'll pay £5 or whatever.
But they'll only do that en masse every few months. Otherwise they tend to be less sure if they can be bothered.
Moreover those friends tend to be awful pragmatists about it:
"I'm feeling a bit tired. I won't make this gig but I'll see them next week or the week after when they have some other gigs." Then when next week or the week after comes they're a bit tired again or something really important comes up. They only make the effort when they know they won't see you for another 3 months.
their mates will go to all their gigs regardless. i realise this comment may offend some, but i've just been accidentally prodded by someone else in this office to make it. :-P
* to make this comment safer, cos there are bands i hate it's applied to in the past, change 'good' to 'bands people want to see'. naming no names. :-)
i haven't heard art's band.
Unless all his mates have the same musical taste then it doesn't work like that. It is, of course, possible they do have the same taste in which case I'd place them as 'fans' not 'mates'.
You're wrong. :-)
because the music I am into now and make isn't the same obvious indie stuff a lot of my uni mates were into and hence they don't really come to my bands' gigs to see me, but to see other people they know are at our gigs and support us. If we do a lot of gigs they don't come to most of them.
I mean I've got mate's bands that I love but I wouldn't go and see them 3 times in one week 'cos there's other mates' bands that I love too.
And, even if you like a mate's band if they play too much you fall into this complacency of "well, I'll go to one of the other 6 gigs they're doing this month..."
They just say they'd rather you didn't play any other gigs in the same location close to this one.
It only tends to come up for venues like The Bull & Gate or Dublin Castle and that's because if you play four gigs close to each other and your fanbase is made up (like Art Vanderlay's) of mates not 'fans' then chances are those people will only come to one of those gigs.
So if a venue is looking to get a lot of business on the back of your fans they'd rather they came to their gig not some other gig.
but trust me - some of them can, and have done (just not generally with little unsigned bands).
replace you on the bill with another band and not tell you.
you'd could be pissing off some decent promoters (not that booking another band and forgetting to tell you is decent, but youknowwhatimean).
I just meant they weren't physically preventing them.
they are actually preventing you from playing that particular show. so no, you could play another show, just not the gig you were booked in to do originally. errrrrrrrrrr.... ok! you could get really pedantic about that if you want! if there's going to be a situation like that then it's up to the band/manager/agent etc to ultimately decide which gig is the best one to play at that time.
sometimes a good wee band like Blah Blah Blah will slip through the net (300 gigs in a year, mostly in london!), but this seems pretty rare.
I felt like it was being portrayed as if the promoters *were* physically stopping them, given the moaning. :D
I think the thing with Blah Blah Blah is that they were straight-up open about what they were doing. I don't think anyone would have booked them without knowing they'd be doing another 25-30 London gigs that month (and frankly anyone who did could have only done so by booking them without looking at their gig schedule which would have been their own silly faults) and no-one would ever have put them on a bill without putting other acts on to bring people...
If they're coming from America or something the promoter might have paid for their flights or something so they wouldn't exactly be happy about other promoters getting dabs on them when they've shelled out for them to be in the country in the first place.
Otherwise it's just the promoters just wanting an exclusive.
just because promoters worry that you'll bring everyone down to one gig and not the other.
If you think this will happen, it's not really worth playing both gigs, in my view. If not, go ahead.
you can't really blame the promoters
i know you guys put on a really good band many times frequently (too be fair they were on first) and on going to see them there was nobody watching except the singers girlfriend. And its not like the band are unheard of.
good promoters are good promoters and bad promoters are bad promoters. At the end of the day, its not the kind of job you get 'rich' off so you can't really judge them for being concerned.
if you're going to get all your mates down both nights then go for it!
people aren't going to want to see your band more then once a month. so if you only gig once a month or less in a town, you'll get a better turnout then if you play every week.
They let Phil Collins play both legs at Live Aid didn't they ?
by the Atlantic ocean.
there may have been some customers who didn't go to Wembley because they heard he was on the telly later on anyway.
If i was Harvey Goldsmith, i wouldn't have stood for it
we only apply it to poor local bands with lots of mates
If the band are ace then we don't care, we just want them to play our night!!
I imagine this is a much bigger problem somewhere like London (not Wrexham)
A touring band shouldn't play the same city more than once every 3 months at least - it seems ridiculous when bands like The Subways play Wrexham once every year!
(or at least not do gigs in the same place).
Particularly if a promoter's paying you money and potentially stands to lose money if they fail to break even, it's pretty frustrating if the act you've booked agrees to do another gig the night before and then doesn't bring many to your gig.
As a promoter I've never ever asked bands not to book gigs (in London at least) just beforehand but I see it as a point of of etiquette that they'd try not to do so, or at least let me know if they're doing that so I can make sure there's someone on the bill who'll pull in numbers.
Similarly as a band we try to space out our gigs in London by at least two or three weeks simply 'cos otherwise you over-saturate and struggle to bring people and that's just not fair on the promoter.
To me this is one of these issues where it's just a (usually) unspoken rule of etiquette that you try to respect a promoter and do your utmost to bring people to their night as that's hard to do if it's your 4th gig in that particular town that week...
As if you've got a choice!
<MASSIVE SAFETY WINK>
Seriously though - I've played two gigs in Manchester on the same night before, and they've both been rammed, simply because they were well promoted and offered different things (one was a DIY night, another was a club night) and had other good bands playing too. I expect the situation in Manchester is different to London though - most of the promoters up here are good friends, so they try to avoid stepping on each other toes.
You guys are a level of goodness above others but also you were presumably asked to play these shows by promoters who had their own friends to see them.
If those promoters ran two nights a couple days apart you wouldn't have found it as rammed I'd expect. I doubt you were pulling the crowd here in the way we're talking about.
When your band isn't known and has to ask a promoter to put you on then your fans are basically people who know you so you can't expect to get a lot of people through the door nor can you expect those you do pull to be much more than casually interested in seeing your band, most likely.
and what I said before isn't strictly true in that one of the good things with London is that you could do a gig in, say, Kilburn in the North-West, Whitechapel in the East and Lewisham in the South quite close together and pull it off as they're far enough apart for it not to matter.
Obviously London doesn't have as cohesive scene as Manchester - certainly you get sets of promoters who are good friends and work round each other but it's just too big and too wide an area for everyone to know everyone.
I suppose the other thing I should mention (which won't be applicable to a new band like art_vanderlay's) is once you've been going a while you start to get different audiences and if you're canny enough you can do gigs close together so long as they appeal to different audiences.
For example we've got a crowd of people who got into us when we were involved with the antifolk scene and will come along if we're doing gigs with any of those acts, then another crowd who are sort of the set people who know us through our label and they'll come to slightly different gigs and then there's another set of people who know us through our bassist's band and they'd come to different gigs again and so on and so forth...
that last para is what I was getting at (and I realise that my last post sounded a little smug) - we were playing two nights with little crossover in terms of crowd or in terms of the other bands that were playing, and the fact that they were both busy was very little to do with us - they were both well promoted nights with lots of good bands playing.
I don't understand why bands want to play 3 shows in one month (as an example) in the same area. It doesn't make sense. If you're a small band that can only rely on your mates coming along, surely you would want them all to come to the same gig and have say 30/40 of your mates come along, rather than have 10 at a bunch of different gigs.
The only time you should play the same area a few times in quick succession is when you're big enough to fill your local venue a few times over. Then it's only fair on your fans to play enough shows so that they all get to see you.
is that very occasionally you get offered gigs where you know there'll be an inbuilt audience and you have an understanding with the promoter that you're under no pressure to bring people.
Not all that often in London, mind, and it's hard to get these when you're doing your first couple of gigs but these do exist and it makes sense to take when they happen...
if you're not really being relied upon to bring a crowd (i.e. your not the headline act at a gig where there is a band big enough to draw a sell out audience anyway).
and in your own interest really
Promoters don't like stepping on other promoters toes, and it seems like a fair thing to expect (I wouldnt go so far as putting it in a contract), not wanting a band to play down the road three days before, or whatever, because it'll be detrimental to the crowd, whether it's an established band with fans, or a new band with friends (who will not go to both gigs) Generally it's not an issue as most promoters are sensible and check out what gigs the band they're booking have around the time of their gig.
It's not even really to do with promoters worrying about making loads of money, it's just ensuring you've got an interesting line up and a crowd to see you, and something that isn't on the next day at another venue. It's also nice to be able to give the bands a bit of cash, which is difficult when they split the crowd.
It's different, as someone said, for out of town bands or foreign bands who just want as many gigs as they can get in their time they're down for.
Is this thread in relation to this from cats x3?
****WATER RATS GIG CANCELLED****
Body: Hi All,
We've unfortunately been chucked off the bill for our Water Rats show on Monday with Retribution Gospel Choir due to breaking our contract with the venue by taking on the tour with Forward Russia.
We've asked that all of our cheap list spaces still be honoured, but I'm not sure it'll happen so you may have to pay £10 if you are still going.
Please accept our apologies,
Bugger. I can't got to the Forward, Russia! date as I'm seeing Jeffrey Lewis that day.
After all, surely people go to see Forward Russia at their gigs, not the support band. How many people are they likely to lose to the Forward Russia gig, honestly?
this is the way water rats is run these days.
i'm amazed any good bands are still getting lured there.
never made a difference