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Journalists mentioning Lily Allen in reviews
I've fucking had it. The Independent yesterday featured three articles mentioning her, every last fucking Kate Nash review does it, every review where a band have a fan base that was in part aided by the fucking internet.
It's lazy lazy lazy and on the whole, really quite inaccurate too.
Lovely day today though, innit? Yeah!
I'm going to Starbucks.
I'm not sure it's that Inaccurate really
especially in terms of Kate Nash.
Sorry.
Lily is popular. She therefore gets mentioned by journalists a lot.
It happens to everyone in that situation.
Yeah, the Kate Nash thing
I'm kind of letting pass because obviously they both have a London twang and all that crap.
But seriously, mentioning Lily appears to be acceptable wherever people talk about Myspace or any kind of 'internet phenomenon' or whatever. It's doing my nut in. There are people who have benefited more directly from an internet fanbase than Lily, without the aid of a major label marketing budget.
This is coming from someone who actually really likes Miss Allen and her music!
See also:
The 'mini Allen' feature in the Metro last week.
Jamie T? A mini Allen? I was livid!
Adele? Adele has the most incredible voice of any new artist in the country right now and to compare her to Lily is just strange. Because they're both from London? Bollocks.
ARGH.
Really?
I thought only the broadsheets were making a fuss of this 'Myspace phenomenon' thing. Don't trust the broadsheet music sections with a 10 foot pole is my advice.
calling journalists lazy
is lazy
Nah.
I don't think you're a lazy journo. I can think of plenty that aren't. It just smacks of saying something because everybody else is when Lily is brought up in interviews and reviews.
But really. I am going to Starbucks now.
i know *I'M* not lazy
i was pointing out how referring to journalists as lazy is exactly the same as using the same tired lily allen comparisons over and over.
it's probably irony or something
Not really.
Lazy is just a word, not some ridiculous reference point.
"lazy journalism"
think of your own word/phrase
but also i think you're wrong
referencing Oceansize in a Kate Nash review would be ridiculous
referencing an artist so similar that Kate Nash could quite easily fit onto a bill with, without anyone batting an eyelid isn't as much lazy or ridiculous as it is pertinent. if you don't see the similarities you should be worried.
"Lacklustre reportage"?
Why is it necessary to have your own phrase for 'lazy journalism'? It's not like clichéd prose or an over-worked lyric. It's like me asking you to invent your own phrase for 'bad music'. Bad music IS bad music. Lazy journalism IS lazy journalism. Why don't you invent your own phrase for 'equilateral triangle'?
You're right that the Nash/Allen comparisons are pertinent, but overworked journalist similes ('Nash is like Allen') are much more tiring than people trying to refine the standards of journalism. Talking about Kate Nash in terms of Lily Allen is inevitable, but if it dominates ALL her press then frankly it's unfair, damaging, and, like Colin said, lazy.
I don't even like Kate Nash, and I think Lily Allen is great. Maybe it's the fault/bad luck of Kate Nash to be so similar and chronologically close to the far out-strippingly successful career of her 'predecessor'. I don't know.
I don't think you can call Lily more successful than Kate
when the latter's debut LP has only been released today.
Plus, who is Colin? I am crablin!
I think you can call me more successful than you
I meant at this point in time, where Kate's the new kid on the block and Lily's the 'old gal'. FUCKER xxxx
Calling people lazy who call journalists lazy
is lazy
In defence of the Kate Nash thing...
Kate Nash came to wider attention as a direct result of Lily Allen putting her in her "top 8" so it's entirely appropriate and relevant (and perhaps even necessary) to mention her if giving any overview of her rise to prominence (as most debut albums tend to do)
The sooner people shut up about her the better.
Poshcore sucks.
Poshcore?
That's a terrible name.
I'd put anything you do musically in that category
if we're really going to categorise people for their background. Irrelevant to music as it is.
Heh
I'm totally 4real and well urban.
Nah
I'll start penning disgustingly trite little ditties about walking down the street and living off my fat allowance in my parent paid studio flat while my TEAM puts my career plan together, then I'll be poshcore.
oh, john
how can you not feel the poetry in lines like 'i use mouthwash, sometimes i floss' ?
Sorry I had to take a moment to weep.
That kind of brilliance in today's pop icons just really GETS ME, you KNOW?
its so much
LIKE MY LIFE
Hmmm
And still the only musical reference you made to 'poshcore' here was where you mentioned 'trite little ditties' and the lyrical content.
Every artist that wants to sell a few records needs a team.
I think you're jealous.
You think wrong sunshine!
well even the mainstream
have now tired of arctic monkeys reference. so they need a new reference point to cover their lack of knowledge
It should all be based around my face.
when's the new James Blunt album out?
sooooooooooooooooooon
can't wait!
Poshcore does suck.
But I don't think Lilly Allen is poshcore. As annoying as Kate Niah and Allen are, at least the charts are populated by people writing their own, half decent pop songs. And it is ridiculous that she is mentioned every time the word 'Myspace' is used - so lazy. Kate Nash was described as a 'lo-fi Bjork' in the Guardian recently, my friend told me. Like, whatever.
imagine i'd never heard kate nash or lily allen
now describe Kate Nash with a reference point
Chips, texting, Macky D.
Pat Butcher
if a geldof daughter
wrote songs...
Like a musical version of East Enders
it's funny
when you use a reference point, it really is just a reference point
nobody's saying "OMG KATE SOUNDS JUST LIKE LILY LOLZ."
but sadly, so many people really are stupid enough to read stuff as such.
this thread just confirms it.
sorry
it was your comment
"I don't think they're the same singer by any means."
you did biology at school. right?
2 simultaneously appearing "internet-sensation" early twenties mockney pop singers in compared to ea
ch other shocker.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME
AND YET THEY ARE READILY COMPARABLE
LAZY!
NO IT ISN'T THEY ARE SIMILAR YOU DOLT!
BUT ONE OF THEM'S BLACK
is this the wrong thread?
kate nash got compared to arctic monkeys?
now THAT is ridiculous
i would've gone more for amon amarth but hey!
not musically
but as myspace phenomena - no matter how inaccurate that may be
'poshcore'
= the stupidest thing i've EVER heard. could intelligent people i like please stop using it? thanks.
How can Kate Nash be called 'Poshcore' when Foundations isn't remotely 'posh'?
No they have the most delightful common touch.
Yeah it's well rough down Harrow way.
Spent much time in Harrow John?
No but my impression was there's a lot of fairly "comfortable housing"
for middle-income families there.
I'm pretty sure Kate Nash has never actually pretended to be from a rough background so I find the arguments people make about her a little silly.
I admit it does irritate me a bit
when bands exaggerate (or even invent) their "working class backgrounds" in order to try to appeal to wider audiences 'cos I find it dishonest.
But as long as someone isn't trying to deceive people into thinking their something they're not I don't think people's backgrounds are a problem.
Again I accept the point John (Brianlove, not you!) is making about how unfair it is when bands make it big due to who their parents know rather than on their own merits. But again I'm pretty sure this wasn't the case with Kate Nash.
I agree with you but I'd think John's point is a little different
Something more along the lines of: people who are already set for life getting careers that people for whom life is very hard could really do with.
I guess that's simplistic. Life's like that anyway: certain parts of society will always have a lot more chances than others.
But I can see how it can be galling to want to be able to make your living from art and to see people who apparently don't need to make a living in the first place being the most successful.
I'm not saying that at all
I don't know if that's what John means, I'm just guessing he isn't talking about 'working class heroes' and more likely about priviledge in its various forms.
Personally speaking, I think it's a shame that it isn't possible/easy to make a living being an artist. I don't begrudge people who are well-off and well-connected getting somewhere, though. It's the way the world is. I wish I could make a living as a musician but I never will.
Surely we were talking about upper middleclass at least
or 'beyond'. Essentially I don't think it's really about class, is it? We know what we mean here: people who are financially solvent and who know a lot of people who are in positions to help them in the media, via their parents or going to the 'right school'.
These days that could mean people whose parents would have been described as 'working class' but have 'done good'.
I should make it clear that I have no idea who Kate Nash is in terms of her background, schooling, contacts, etc. I am talking entirely about hypotheticals.
I will say that I find it unlikely that Lily Allen's father didn't make a difference to her ability to break into the music industry, but she's obviously doing something right or else her musical career would have sunk without trace like Kelly Osbourne's seems to have. Mostly it's about the opportunity to show others what you're doing.
If you know people who know people I'm sure the job of securing a record deal and so forth is a lot easier. So much of what makes music 'popular' these days is down to marketing I would think.
Right on!
Best not discuss anything but the music, that would be totally racist.
Whatever you say.
i presume
because they didn't go to artschool and don't live in 'edgy' Dalston.
Yeah
Wolverhampton University was a hotbed of wealthy young bucks and fillies.
I think what John's railing aginst
is the fact it isn't a level playing field and there are certain acts who succeed due to their access to money and contacts rather than the merits of their songwriting ability.
Which is a fair point but I'm not convinced he picking on the right targets.
A slightly more sinister edge
is the element of 'cultural gatekeeping'.
This is not the fault of the girls, of course, but it's what their success represents. They are not responsible for being quite as safe and palatable as they are. But that doesn't stop me becoming massively frustrated at the lowest-common-denominator cash-tills-ringing approach to music that they represent (in my mind, at least).
I don't actually have a massive problem with people from any certain background - you can't control where you are from, and why should you want to - but there is a frustration with the general lack of meritocracy and the fact that some people have string pulling parents with deep pockets to aid in their career development, regardless of whether they're worth developing... that's not to romanticise poverty in any way at all. I guess it's just a frustration with the nature of how things are, rather than anything directly to do with any specific artist, but you can see how the two run in parallel when certain people just seem to unintentionally embody something you're uncomfortable with.
Also:
Kate Nash's lyrics make me want to scream NO NO NO as loud as I can and break windows just to drown out the horror of the banality of it all.
I don't think drug dealing precludes somoene from being posh
I'm sure there've been instances of being dealing drugs in Eton or wherever.
That said the belief that Kate Nash is posh is, certainly based on my own recollection of her, complete and utter bullshit.
well off then
her dad IS the sheriff of nottingham afterall.
I thought she sounded pretty posh on Never Mind the Buzzcocks
what does "posh" mean though?
council estate? 'chavvy'?
i mean, you're from Holloway, right? deprived inner city area? it could be argued that you sound 'posh'.
I certainly DO sound posh.
So yeah, posh just means how you sound. I got a lot of stick at school for sounding posh. It's because my mum's from Penicuik and has a light Scottish accent which combined with a South England upbringing essentially guarantees me speaking without glottal stops or the other trappings of London speech.
Hmm
I realised you probably thought I was making a point by saying she sounded posh, suggesting it was a bad thing.
I don't think it is, though I don't like that she puts on a different accent when singing her stuff. I didn't particularly like Damon putting on OTT cocker-knee tones in the Parklife days but he was clearly singing in 'character', something Lily doesn't seem to do.
Anyway to summarise: Lily Allen sounds 'posh' to me and there's nothing wrong with that.
why does it matter?
Nah, it doesn't.
I love seeing moneyed kids make it in the music industry.
Out of interest...
...what is your belief that Kate Nash is "moneyed" and posh based upon?
Aside from the fact she lives in Harrow (which is, I believe does not not entirely consist huge houses etc.) and wanted to go to the Brisol Old Vic Theatre School (which isn't exclusively full of posh kids), I'm not actually aware of any evidence whatsoever supporitng this assertion.
Well, m'lud, allow me to gather my well prepared
case for the prosecution and I'll be back with after recess.
*you
*recess = going to work, innabit.
I'll look forward to it.
But really you might wanna back up your argument with something as it does seem to be based largely on assumptions.
although I may be wrong.
Yes.
You still haven't provided one piece of evidence for lumping Kate Nash in this category though
so I don't feel wrong quite yet,
I don't think of either of them as poshcore, really
although in my mind there is a definate group of bands who are, although this might be totally unfounded. adventure playground, for one...
STOP USING THE WORD POSHCORE
poshcore poshcore poshcore
soz
Although...
a posh hardcore act would be pretty funny.
Lily Allen....
...likes Starbucks.
the 'poshcore' debate
my problem with the lily allens/jack penates/kate nashs etc etc of this world isn't their 'poshness' per se (although I do generally find private school people irritating, if only for the assumptions they seem to have about how life is and the general lack of recognition that their upbringing and the opportunities that come with it is not 'normal' for most people eg. being able to do months and months of unpaid work experience in the media, an opportunity most people are denied).
It's more about the way they present themselves (or are presented) as representing 'normal'/'everyday'/'street' life, with their 'social commentary' lyrics sung in wildly exaggerated 'working class' (or what they percieve to be working class, i've never heard anyone speak like jamie t does in real life) accents, when they do and are nothing of the sort. It's the Guy Ritchie syndrome put to music.
That is what is so irritating about this whole LDN scene, it is pretentious in the true sense of the word ie a front of 'authenticity' with nothing of truth behind it.
Evening Standard on friday
the poster advertising the free magazine said Kate Nash: The new Lily Allen.
i've never even heard 'poshcore'
until this thread.
what a horrible idea.
but whatever someone's background, i'd rather they sang songs about normal everyday life, than about having lots of money and opportunity and sitting at home all day picking their nose.
either that or sing about dragons and castle. dragons and castles would be good. (as long as it's not prog)
im all in favour of dragons and castles
most songs about 'everyday life' are shit anyway. I've spent half my life walking round a small city centre dodgy beer boys, I know what it's like, why do i want to hear about it constantly in musical form. Observation is about more than just 'say what you see', surely?
It comes down to the difference between truth and vermissimillitude
Many people seem to think that singing about the mundane details of everyday life means they're singing about what's "real" or "true" but "truth" is a much deeper thing - you could sing about dragons and castles and still make a "true" observation of the nature of humanity just as you can sing about what goes on down the pub on a Friday night without saying anything true at all.
I'm not sure I'm making sense but I know what I mean!
What about mentioning Lily Allen
in a Lily Allen review?
Surely that's acceptable, yes?
no way!
you're only allowed to talk about keith allen and myspace.
i really, really, really, really...
...REALLY hate when people use "private schooled" as a criticism. especially when they actually have no idea of the artist's upbringing and they're just using it because they dislike that one song they heard on radio one a bit too much.
lily allen, keith allen, jack penate, jamie t
all did go to private school. so it's a relevant point with regard to the 'everyday life observation' thing.
the horrors, on the other hand - i'm not a fan, but whether they went to private school or not is irrelevant, as they aren't pretending to be anything other than vampires as far as i can tell.
GRR
its fucking annoying. it really is lazy journalism.
Kate Nash is compared with Lily Allen because she has the 'LDN' accent and because lily had her in her top 8 for a few months. its so fustrating. lyrically Kate is indeed similar but musically much more like regina spektor.
no journalist has ever made this link.
and this bollucks about public school as mentioned above. SO WHAT!! if the artist did go to public school whats the difference between that and state school? their parents were middle class? big wow.
link made
http://www.drownedinsound.com/release/view/11023
It doesn't matter
to me if these people went to private school or not. If the music is good I couldn't care less.
To echo what other people are saying, what I have a problem is with people that went to private school singing as if they're auditioning for the role as the Artful Dodger when they REALLY don't sound like that.
If someone talks like Barbera Windsor, goes to private school, then sings like Barbera Windsor..fair do's.
But if they talk like Nigella Lawson, go to private school, then sing like Barbera Windsor they are a fake.
(I'm not saying any of the particular artists involved ever had a voice like the MILF chef, but you get my point)
Odd how they all cropped up following Artic Monkey's success with strong accents. isn't it.
If any of these points have been made above.......fuck off.
For the record, if you haven't heard 'poshcore' before it's because I made it up a few weeks ago.
You should have copyrighted it
it'll be all over OMM in 2 months.