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legality of living in warehouses

alcxxk [Edit] [Delete] 88 replies 18:27, 23 May '13

you know how cool kidz live in warehouses? that aren't legally supposed to have people live in them?
what happens if the council goes HEY ARE YOU LIVING THERE???

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  • you say 'uhhhhhh....... no?'

    ethricdouble | 23 May '13, 18:28 | X
  • to be clear, they are paying rent, to the owner, who's fully aware that they're living there

    alcxxk | 23 May '13, 18:31 | X
  • Cool kids don't live in warehouses.

    Try-hard London wankers pretend they live in warehouses.

    People actually live in houses or flats.

    forzaborza | 23 May '13, 18:31 | X
    TheBeautifulOnes_ this'd this
  • not sure

    I let Toby deal with all that stuff

    jumpedupindieprick | 23 May '13, 18:32 | X
  • do they get broadband?

    japes @alcxxk | 23 May '13, 18:32 | X
  • Didn't eltham recently fall foul of this?

    LordLuciusBanter | 23 May '13, 18:32 | X
    eltham and marckee this'd this
  • .

    japes | 23 May '13, 18:32 | X
  • yes

    alcxxk @japes | 23 May '13, 18:33 | X
  • not sure then

    japes @alcxxk | 23 May '13, 18:34 | X
  • talk to me, elty, talk to me

    alcxxk @LordLuciusBanter | 23 May '13, 18:34 | X
  • you do put quite a lot of effort in, don't you?

    alcxxk @forzaborza | 23 May '13, 18:36 | X
    forzaborza and OvertakenByTractors this'd this
  • think so?

    idk

    alcxxk @ethricdouble | 23 May '13, 18:38 | X
  • Occasionally I have to go to parties at my friends warehouse in Hackney Wick.

    I stand there the entire time just thinking "If there was a fire in here we're all absolutely FUCKED". It can't be legal, can it? Can't be.

    GetOffMyLawn | 23 May '13, 18:38 | X
  • You could say no you're not living there, just using it for business

    and hope they don't come knocking after 11pm. After we got thrown out we stayed for a while by saying we were working and then locked the gates at 11pm so they couldn't come in and see we were also sleeping there. Unfortunately the landlords wanted to turn the place over back to commercial use (or at least rebuilt it so it complied with fire regulations) so we had no choice but to leave in the end.

    I don't know really. My friend was visiting from abroad and I wasn't paying much attention to the whole thing.

    eltham | 23 May '13, 18:44 | X
  • Essentially, the landlord is liable to be prosecuted,

    and the tenants will just get turfed out, often without notice.

    marckee | 23 May '13, 18:44 | X
    eltham this'd this
  • essetial the landlord cranks up the power

    alcxxk @marckee | 23 May '13, 18:52 | X
  • Yeah we had an hour to get out.

    eltham @marckee | 23 May '13, 19:00 | X
  • worst episode of crystal maze ever

    TheWza @eltham | 23 May '13, 19:30 | X
    Songs_about_ducking, alcxxk, Cementimental, Smee, Antpocalypsenow, joeymahone, shadyadie, and heliolithic this'd this
  • They dont so much as go 'Hey anyone living here'

    as turn up and go 'GET THE FUCK OUT, NOW!'

    Yesiamaduck | 23 May '13, 19:32 | X
  • You say "Heeeey, get off my back THE MAN

    I want no part of your immoral capitalist junta". Then you try and punch them but you're too weak from the smack, so they cart you off to the police station and ring your parents who live in rural Dorset to come pick you up. You eventually become a well-connected stockbroker. Cool story bro

    in_limbo | 23 May '13, 21:03 | X
    andyvine, hapi, and douchebag this'd this
  • apparently

    they just have to prove that they are using the space they live in for work stuff?? seems weird, but they can as they do

    alcxxk | 24 May '13, 11:22 | X
  • in some areas it's an intentional gray area, the whole 'live/work' thing because £££

    long story short it's ok.

    Cementimental | 24 May '13, 12:14 | X
  • and you go 'no' and call the police and then maybe squat the place legally, because it's not residential, until they get a court order

    Cementimental @Yesiamaduck | 24 May '13, 12:18 | X
  • ^intentional IE the council tolerate or even encourage it

    Cementimental @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 12:19 | X
  • HAVE TO GO TO PARTIES ON NOE WHAT A CHORE

    Cementimental @GetOffMyLawn | 24 May '13, 12:19 | X
  • uurrrhhhhh

    maybe

    basically the way it works is the building will have some kind of planning consent from when it was originally built that states what the approved use is.

    change of use only requires a planning application if the change is "substantial" - ie, putting in a home office in a house wouldn't require a change of use, but changing a house into an office wholesale would require it. I would imagine however that changing a warehouse into residential would definitely need a change of use.

    although I'm not sure how this works for buildings pre-1947 as they would predate the modern planning system and I have no idea how building worked before then.

    I remember reading years ago that illicit changes was such an issue in Brooklyn that the NYC government had people whose job would be to find places that had been changed over illegally, like they had to dress like hipsters and find out about parties to get inside and stuff. BEST JOB EVER.

    guntrip @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 12:27 | X
  • I've been looking into this

    As cementimental says, it's quite grey, and they've probably kept it deliberately murky.

    guntrip is correct about the planning law aspects. i'm just looking into what the council's remedies would be for breach of that and timescales involved etc.

    TBH, I don't think I can frame this for you in a way that's going to give you sufficient comfort so as to say RIGHT, let's do this, I'm almost confident we can resist any challenge. NOt least because if that was possible, then we'd all be living in commercial properties. However, stranger things have happened. Let me keep digging.

    PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 12:37 | X
    Cementimental this'd this
  • in practice it's one of those things where it doesn't really matter if it's fully legal or not.

    Cementimental | 24 May '13, 12:41 | X
    creakyknees and eltham this'd this
  • thanks

    it's my gf's place in question, she'll be in Glasgow on sunday :)

    alcxxk @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 12:42 | X
  • ^I think this is also correct

    There is going to be a risk of eviction, it all depends on your appetite for taking that on. Best use of our time and brains here I think is to find out whether there are any stalling techniques (e.g. so that you cannot be immediately evicted without prior notice) and that will help to quantify the risk.

    PickledOeuf @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 12:46 | X
  • excellent, I can't wait to meet her :)

    PickledOeuf @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 12:47 | X
  • the veil on this thread is most thick

    bravo

    fitzcarraldo @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 12:50 | X
    Cementimental this'd this
  • :D

    alcxxk @fitzcarraldo | 24 May '13, 12:52 | X
    PickledOeuf, marilyninthesky, japes, and NickDS this'd this
  • As I understand it the only really legally bad stuff that could happen is to the actual landlord and or the hipsters subletting the place

    the actual people living there are in a pretty strong position re:getting evicted, and yeah can totally stall for a court order etc... if they don't cave in to blatantly illegal eviction they should have as much advance notice of eviction and all that sort of rights and stuff as someone renting a normal flat.

    Cementimental @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 12:52 | X
  • this is what I'm concluding too

    So then it comes down to the terms of your agreement with the person you are letting it from. Because the risk inherently lies with them, they may attempt to shift this risk contractually by saying in the contract e.g. that there can be eviction on say 5 days notice in the event that the council challenges the occupation/ use.

    alcxxk, are they at the stage of negotiating a contract yet? Or is she already in? I'm happy to take a look at her contract if you like, (I mean, it's not as if I have a plc to buy or anything ;D).

    PickledOeuf @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 12:56 | X
    Cementimental this'd this
  • It's not just planning laws though - things like fire regs and the like will be different

    for different uses too.

    marckee @guntrip | 24 May '13, 13:00 | X
  • Is this Fountayne Road btw?

    eltham | 24 May '13, 13:04 | X
  • VG point

    although that will be imposed by law rather than in terms of a piece of paper (be it a permission or a contract). Hmmm.

    PickledOeuf @marckee | 24 May '13, 13:10 | X
  • That's what I mean.

    You're more likely to get evicted with no notice and the landlord fined because of a breach of fire regulations than you are with a breach of planning laws.

    marckee @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 13:15 | X
  • I'd be surprised if there was a contract

    I paid a deposit and a month's rent on a room in one once (then there was a clusterfuck with my previous flat and I couldn't move out :( ) and there was never a mention or even whisper of a contract, just paid my rent/deposit in cash.

    guntrip @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 13:20 | X
  • people should get a contract

    even tho it will probably be a total joke and some random boilerplate stuff the guy googled up and didn't properly change all the appropriate info

    Cementimental @guntrip | 24 May '13, 13:23 | X
  • but anyway a verbal agreement is still a legally binding contract

    just harder to prove stuff if it comes to it

    Cementimental @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 13:23 | X
    PickledOeuf and fitzcarraldo this'd this
  • SHUSH

    alcxxk @eltham | 24 May '13, 13:25 | X
  • I'm tempted to say don't get a contract

    because the tenant r\arely has any bargaining power and ends up singing up to draconian terms. No contract means the leaseholder only has the remedies available at law and no enhanced protections. It's a bit dangerous, but ultimately better for the tenant in these situatoins.

    PickledOeuf @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 13:25 | X
  • *don't get a written contract

    PickledOeuf @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 13:26 | X
  • I kind of already live in one i suppose.

    NoNoNoRobots | 24 May '13, 13:27 | X
  • dunno really!

    will ask her. she's just at the stage of finding vaguely threatening letters from the council being all "uh guys"

    alcxxk @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 13:27 | X
  • What's the benefit of living in a warehouse please?

    Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:28 | X
  • Get to drive forklift trucks around ALL DAY

    icouldwinarabbit @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:29 | X
    Antpocalypsenow and Lucien this'd this
  • indie points.

    forzaborza @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:29 | X
  • this place is very big, quite cheap (not ACTUALLY cheap, just people live much worse places for more), nice community feel around the area

    alcxxk @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:30 | X
  • How many on offer?

    Antpocalypsenow @forzaborza | 24 May '13, 13:30 | X
  • I don't get it though (genuinely, not pisstakingly)

    Does it have separate rooms? How is it furnished? How do you get WiFi installed?

    Antpocalypsenow @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 13:32 | X
  • generally

    a big space gets converted with small sleeping rooms for everyone (often using mezanines) and a bathroom, leaving still a big open plan kitchen/living room area with space to do work (eg big enough to convert into a photography studio, or run other small businesses)

    no idea why you think a warehouse can't have wifi though

    alcxxk @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:35 | X
  • sounds a bit...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Real_World

    am oot.

    forzaborza @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 13:37 | X
    georgiabeth this'd this
  • I dunno really, the practicalities of it confuse me

    I mean someone has to install it, pay the bills etc which if you're technically not supposed to be living there seems difficult to me? Same with all the utilities really I suppose.

    I don't think it'd be for me, I like walls and separate rooms too much.

    Antpocalypsenow @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 13:38 | X
  • hmm, letters saying what?

    I can speak to her on sunday if easier.

    PickledOeuf @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 13:38 | X
  • Sozz

    It's just that if the council had a problem with everyone living in that area they probably would have tried to shut they whole place down when they threw us out. They're down with it.

    eltham @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 13:39 | X
  • this would be a very worthwhile post

    if it was fountayne road, and i'd thank you for it

    alcxxk @eltham | 24 May '13, 13:45 | X
  • lots of commercial properties have wifi and other utilities contracts

    fitzcarraldo @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:45 | X
  • they're supposed to be worked in

    places of work have telephones and electricity and running water

    alcxxk @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:46 | X
  • So the company/commercial owner sets up and handles all the utilities

    Tenants have nothing to do with it and just pay for it with the rent?

    I probably should have worked that out with about 5 seconds worth of thinking really.

    Antpocalypsenow @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 13:48 | X
    alcxxk this'd this
  • They have separate rooms

    Well, most do. I looked at one once where two of the rooms only had curtains. I didn't move in there.

    with regard to utilities, the rent for the one I was gonna move into was inclusive of everything except wifi, so the bills for electricity, water etc stayed in the landlord's name. I don't know why it would be difficult though, it isn't as if Virgin Media report all their new installations to the local authority or anything.

    guntrip @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:48 | X
  • other advantages include

    generally non residential areas, so you get away with a lot more with regard to parties

    just generally less interference from landlords re pets, modifications, contracts

    alcxxk @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:52 | X
    eltham this'd this
  • We had walls and separate rooms in mine.

    Landlord paid all the bills so our rent was all inclusive. Wifi was business internet and so was really good. Some warehouses are really shit with flimsy plaster walls but when they're built well they are incredible and so much fun. Look at this! https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/12192_10151158835880248_1179314122_n.jpg and this was our lovely "rustic" kitchen https://www.dropbox.com/s/hx4vfu77beylaga/.facebook_2075909312.jpg and here is my room RIP https://www.dropbox.com/s/ln8x4x4g23coxfv/2013-01-14%2021.40.55.jpg YEAH I HAVE A WANKY FLAG SO WHAT

    eltham @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 13:52 | X
  • That looks a lot more habitable than my mental image of this sort of thing is

    Still don't think it'd be for me frankly but I now understand it. Thanks guys.

    Antpocalypsenow @eltham | 24 May '13, 13:54 | X
  • plus, in London you're pretty likely to find flimsy, shitty building works to period properties that have been converted into flats...

    guntrip @eltham | 24 May '13, 14:02 | X
  • sounds good for Arizona

    but every warehouse space I have been in in the UK has been fucking freezing. I was in some place in Hackney where they had some old heaters blasting the whole time but people were wearing hats and jackets - must be a massive carbon footprint and energy costs/efficency ii some of those older places.

    lardsnail @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 14:04 | X
  • every one i've been to much has had central heating

    alcxxk @lardsnail | 24 May '13, 14:05 | X
  • Alright Dadpocalypsenow.

    eltham @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 14:08 | X
    alcxxk and Antpocalypsenow this'd this
  • We had a practice space in a warehouse in N4 that was being used as mixed living/music space.

    It used to be a meat packing / processing place and there was this really grim tiled room with a big metal butcher's table in the middle that someone had optimistically set up as a tattoo studio. It looked like something from Saw. The crusties who lived there complained about noise if we practised past about 9pm. Lol, well done for moving into a place like that if you don't like noise.

    I'm sure there are plenty of places that work, but that one was a disaster.

    84joe | 24 May '13, 14:32 | X
  • That sounds awful

    Antpocalypsenow @84joe | 24 May '13, 14:33 | X
  • tbh the living situation there was more at the squat end of the scale.

    it wasn't very organised, even though they paid a little rent.

    84joe @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 14:34 | X
  • sounds awesome

    alcxxk @84joe | 24 May '13, 14:35 | X
    Cementimental and shadyadie this'd this
  • We rode around on those fork pallet trolley things.

    One of these http://www.securefixdirect.com/ekmps/shops/securefixdirect/images/2500kgs-2.5-ton-hand-pallet-pump-truck-deluxe-standard-fork-lift-trolley-jack-4016-p.jpg

    Get a good rhythm with the pump and you can reach surprisingly hair-raising speeds.

    eltham @icouldwinarabbit | 24 May '13, 14:39 | X
  • The industrial zone was always the least interesting one.

    eltham @TheWza | 24 May '13, 14:40 | X
  • same way you get it installed anywhere

    order it and then wait like a million years for them to install it and then it doesn't work

    Cementimental @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 14:43 | X
  • Get a good rhythm with the pump.

    icouldwinarabbit @eltham | 24 May '13, 14:44 | X
    Antpocalypsenow this'd this
  • actually yes probably good advice!!!

    Cementimental @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 14:44 | X
  • SPACE FOR ARTISTS TO DO ART AND LIVE LIKE ARTISTS

    the hipsters inevitably follow because it becomes a cool fun interesting creative place to bee

    Cementimental @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 14:46 | X
  • These places are as habitable as the people making them into a living space's mental image and ability to translate that into reality is

    :)

    Cementimental @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 14:47 | X
  • Second part of this post remains relevant

    http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/social/4430842#r7520724

    Antpocalypsenow @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 14:47 | X
    Cementimental this'd this
  • the size of your room is literally about three times the size of mine

    London

    wewerewerewolvesonce @eltham | 24 May '13, 14:51 | X
  • I personally lack the faculty for either frankly.

    I'm filing it under: Things that don't appeal to me but would be daft to get worked up about.

    Antpocalypsenow @Cementimental | 24 May '13, 14:55 | X
  • sounds good ^__^

    Cementimental @Antpocalypsenow | 24 May '13, 14:57 | X
  • saying "uh guys"

    shadyadie @PickledOeuf | 24 May '13, 19:42 | X
  • i puked on that very duvet

    fappable @eltham | 24 May '13, 19:59 | X
  • sounds like the old DiS office in Camberwell.

    shadyadie @alcxxk | 24 May '13, 21:36 | X
  • a bit.

    shadyadie @shadyadie | 24 May '13, 21:37 | X
  • the pump essential pumps up the pump

    alcxxk @icouldwinarabbit | 25 May '13, 10:23 | X
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