Everett True / Sean / Engaging with a tastemaker critic
Did this get linked? Am I slowing on the uptake?
Off-chance of this taking off into an epic heated wrangle, I'd like to quickly point out the following:
I'm looking for a tremolo pedal and would swap some tapy tascammy stuff / a zoom 505 or some other odds and ends such as a plastic samurai alarm clock and some books.
now...
http://everetttrue.blogspot.com/2009/07/differences-between-taste-maker-critic.html
the differences between a taste-maker critic and a critic
Polar Bear is Dying raises a very fair point in response to a previous post that cuts straight to the heart of my research. What is the difference between a taste-maker critic and a critic? Don't all critics influence taste in some way or other?
Um, you could certainly make an argument for that. But wait. Many critics don't look to influence taste. They see their role to inform, to provide a form of consumer guide: or to discuss and inspect without necessarily prejudicing the reader (this form of approach particularly favoured at more 'respectable' newspapers); or (lower down the food chain) to do whatever it takes to blag that free CD or pair of concert tickets. There are whole sections of the critical community that view 'personality' in a writer with distrust - "immature" is a word I've seen used several times in conjunction with the recent death of one of the NME's foremost taste-maker critics of the 80s and 90s, Steven Wells (and not particularly as a prejorative). Many (perhaps most) critics view their duty as to 'tell the story', describe the music - nothing more, nothing less.
I'm not saying that the latter can't be taste-makers. Of course, they can: especially when they have a certain consistency in their views which their audience learns to interact with. For example, David Fricke of Rolling Stone is a man who's never bothered pushing the 'personality' side of his writing, but clearly he's a taste-maker critic - many people, both within the industry and without, set great store by his recommendations.
Then again, there are many critics who would define themselves as taste-makers without any clear reason why. I'm particularly thinking of the sorry breed of writers that showed up at the UK music press mid-90s, having read nothing and experienced nothing except the UK music press itself (and perhaps a few years at university, which frankly amounts to bugger all). Were they taste-makers, simply because the intent was there? Or were they lacking the personality - so crucial to a persona like Steven Wells, or Nick Kent, or Everett True - without which, unless you're as trusty and consistent a source as Fricke, or Simon Reynolds (to give an even better example), you cannot fill that role?
(I'm not meaning to imply Reynolds' or Fricke's writing has no personality - clearly it does - just that that personality isn't central to their whole approach.)
Is it possible to be a taste-maker critic if no one is paying attention to your views? Now, that's another question entirely. To pull in a question I posed a few weeks back, is the critic defined by their audience? Because it sure as hell doesn't just lie in the intent. How can I be a taste-maker if I'm not influencing anyone?
So is there a ready checklist by which you can define a taste-maker critic? Of course not: like all definitions, it is mutable and flexible and determined by the medium it exists within. And yet I need to be able to state - as unambiguously as possible - what a taste-maker critic is, because without doing so, how can I define the changing role of the taste-maker critic in web 2.0 environments?
In the past few days, I've been engaging in a (one-sided) argument with the fine readers of Drowned In Sound over a particularly cantankerous blog post overview of dull-ass Icelandic band Sigur Ros. Most are down with the idea I should be free to write what I like, even if they disagree with the sentiments and feel the post is gratuitous and rather pointless. Interestingly, almost without exception, the entire (message board posting) readership of DiS seem - quite touchingly - affronted that I should be seeking to engage them in dialogue over my views, one staff writer even going as far to suggest, "I wish a little of the old True would come back instead of just trolling for hits".
It's almost like a entire generation of music fans have never engaged with a taste-maker critic - because this is what I've always done!
Oh, and here's a tentative checklist for a taste-maker definition... If I could be bothered, I'd draw some arrows linking and circling the following to indicate the relationships. Maybe one of my readers could oblige?
Taste
Opinion
Personality
Writing skills
Trust
SeanDiS said...
To be fair to our "readers" the bulk of the people who post, react and respond on the boards represent a vocal minority. 300k+ people come to DiS every month and about 5% of people who read the music forum actively post. Basically, a helluva lot of people can be found lurking, searching for tid bits or to follow debates, yet I can see why people think it's just a small cluster of quite often negative people, which is seemingly what puts people off bigging up up things they like... I've not done a tally but I'd estimate that about 60% of threads and/or responses to them are negative.
As for the actual point of your blog, I think that the succinct nature of modern media seems to leave little room for 'opinion' and I hate it. I started writing because I had too many opinions that no-one in my small down wanted to listen to, let alone engage with. Like moving from warm alcopops to wild turkey on the rocks, it started with instant messenger conversations and email discussion groups, and soon became awful attempts to write like Lester Bangs (and failing miserably, obvs) (in fact after 12years of blogging I'm still shit at the writing bit but don't tell the Sunday Times or they'll pull my column).
I love when I know a writer's taste, don't agree with that taste and can find things to like because they absolutely hate it. And even moreso, nowadays at least, I love reading skilled writers because there are so few of them. I could read Charlie Brooker writing about painting teacups and I know it'd still be fascinating. Ditto Stevie Chick writing about records I'm never likely to like or John Doran writing about records from genres that I don't for a second relate to or understand.
I dunno if I answered the question.
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WHY
must he keep referring to himself in the third person
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let's just recap
the guy spams the board with unoriginal, blatantly attention-seeking articles, then goes to another corner of the internet and starts bitching about the boards and their inability to deal with his taste-maker skills, and then Sean comes along and takes another dig at the boards
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...
Taste
Opinion
Personality
Writing skills
TrustMISSING: Knowledge of the art form he's criticising.
That said: I have one Sigur Ros record. Frequently a track from that record will come on while I have Winamp's shuffle mode turned on (which itself, tends to be while I'm busy typing some shit or another). And the only way I know Sigur Ros has come on is generally about a minute into the track, when I find myself becoming really fucking bored but not knowing why...
...so I can relate.
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He's sort of Tesco Value Steven Wells.
Used to be a big deal at the NME and Melody Maker several years ago.
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"60% of threads [on the DiS music board] are negative"
Well spotted, Sean. If people like Everett True wouldn't spam their blogs on there, that percentage would go down drastically...
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Who is he
and what on earth is he talking about?
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and yet sean has no problem asking the boards
for advice about what direction the site should be going in.
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It's a bit much for him to claim he's been 'engaging' anyone in that thread
there's two posts made by him in the whole thing, both just pimping his blog again.
Former high-profile journo engages in a bit of painfully obvious trolling in a desperate bid for hits and 'controversy' (about Sigur Ros ffs, what next, "Waitrose: Ooh, it's for posh people"?), gets widely slated for it, writes pissy response.
At least when KiK does it he's hilarious. ET couldn't in his wildest dreams come up with something as great as KiKs review of Thw Wire's top 50 records of the year.
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Sean asking for advice is fine
but apologising to Everett True for the negative response to his Sigor Ros blog is a bit rich, as that blog is no different to the usual "Band so-so are shit, why does anyone like them" threads that normally pop up on the Music board.
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I've not read the thread 'cos it looked a bit dull.
How many of the "entire (message board posting)" readers of DiS actually bothered to read/comment on it? He seems to present it as some major argument whereas I can't imagine it got that many replies.
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so as to throw my two pence in, and not just plonk it up there
I don't read much music criticism and much prefer to gauge opinion on messageboards. I'm sure they played a big part back in the day but just can't get my head around how, post-2.0, any 'officially sanctioned' opinion can be worthwhile...I mean I can't help seeing a big difference between writing skill and taste, the former providing some enjoyable, occasionally even thought-provoking reading, but once passed through the "journo-writing-about-journalism"-filter, the magnitude of this always seems to get blown way out of proportion.
If you're going to entertain your readership, push bands you love, make someone think once in a while then great, but, only speaking for myself, I can't see anyone giving two shits and a fuck about any one journalist's attempts to steer their readers collective consciousness towards some movement / band or another, certainly doesn't really warrant such insistant introspection and grasping at some vain title that, really, outside of journos themselves anyone cares about.
^Does this make any sense?^
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I'm too transfixed by his chin
Does this Everett character have a large appendage on his head too?
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I was just confused by it
It was called 'Defending the Indefensible' yet he just seemed to attack a very easily attacked band. I think his thesaurus was on INVERTO MODE the day he came up with the title.
Either that or there is now 2.0 yolk all over my face.
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if you look on the music forum (which is what i meant)
there's such a small amount of threads dedicated to thing people likes
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oh, for god's sake.
the reason this got slated is because, as someone else said, it was a cringing and attention-seeking non-article that a 15 year old could of bettered. this isn't some massive resistance towards creative music criticism. it got universally trashed because he presented it as if he was making this revolutionary first step towards a sigur ros backlash, when it was the exact opposite of that.
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In fact
I'd go further than that; you're completely wrong. You should probably try and understand your demographic a bit more.
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Of the 40 or so threads on the music board right now
I'd say there's only about 1 that's overtly negative
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You must be blind
Check the Music board right now. The following bands/artists/scenes/festivals are being liked and celebrated: Michael Jackson, ATP, punk, Silversun Pickups, Kraftwerk, Steve Reich, Nick Cave, The Coral, Jeffrey Lewis, The Minutemen, Pixies, Animal Collective, Headdress, Fever Ray, Pennines, Flaming Lips, Twilight Sad, Chew Lips, Dartz!, etc, etc.
There is only one single truly negative thread, about Sigur Ros, started by Everett True.
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But "ET's Sigur Ros are a bit shit" thread (if my understanding is correct that that's what it was) was another negative thread.
You seem to be criticising people who responded to him and criticsed him for being negative about a band by calling them negative. Which doesn't really make sense.
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To be fair though his first "defending the indefensible" article was slagging off Coldplay.
Now that was groundbreaking revolutionary music journalism.
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I'm sure some po-faced twat will jump on me about DiS/ a false sense of entitlement
but I think this demonstrates exactly what has gone wrong with DiS since the Sky malarkey. Sean is clearly a gited writer, enthusiastic about music and possessed some sort of business nous for at least a moment in time, but he now seems to fundamentally misunderstand the demographic he's trying to appeal to.
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i still stand by my comment
it was just really boringly written...he moaned about sigur ros being boring (which they are) and i moaned about his writing being boring (which it is). and that's about it.....silly sod.
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gited writer
hehe
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The best typos
are the ones that cast aspersions over people's sexuality
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I don't know - Sean will no doubt respond that the board posters make up a small minority of the site's demographic.
Which is probably true. What we obviously don't know is what the rest of the demographic want or think - it's hard to say if this is a representative sample or not.
But I do certainly get the sense at the moment Sean has a slightly strange and strained relationship with the forum posters. At times he seems to want to engage people, reach out to them and find out what they want (which, in terms of the board posters at least, I'd agree with you he hasn't yet managed to figure out) then at other times it seems much more attacking and he seems to rather dislike us all. It sort of feels like he wants our support but hates us for not giving it to him...
I do think there is quite a major breakdown in communication between site and posters.
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exactly. that was the point i was trying to make above
but i think it was misinterpreted
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the most popular recent threads
include Sonic Youth are shit, an epic thread about Conor McNicholas leaving his job with 80% of people saying how shit he was, The 100 Reasons I hate Pitchfork Thread is in the top 40 most popular pages in the past month, the I just listened to Sunn0))) and they're shit thread, What Is The Worse Things You Ever Seen At A Gig (had about 4 times the amount of traffic as an average thread), La Roux WTF, MGMT Suck.... and various others. Maybe it's because I see the stats on google analytics and look mostly at what is popular, which perhaps isn't the best overall view for explaining a percentage...
every post about Blur has a few "they're shit" responses, shooting down people's enthusiasm. ditto friendly fires and various others.
i just think it's rare that there's a thread that starts with someone saying they love a band and lots of people replying saying it's good (am sure Lyle would back this up).
i'm not saying EVERYONE ON HERE IS ALWAYS NEGATIVE but what time and time rises to the top is a not-particularly-positive air.
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p.s.
i am well aware a lot of this is the nature of the internet beast but it's also the impression people get of the site as a whole.
whenever i meet people who read the site but never post they just seem to shrug and say that they don't feel they want to get involved in the rows and cynicism, they just like music and come to DiS for a bit of guidance or light teabreak reading (be that the site's editorial or the boards)
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...
It takes motivation and passion to like a band and articulate that like.
When you hate a band, it's like they're doing all the work for you.
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that's message boards.
the provocative threads are more interesting than threads that just go 'this is great, isn't it?'. it's a fact of life
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one stat for you
in the past hour there were 6,587 users online, yet only a 178 signed in (of these I'm not sure how many are actively posting or just happen to be signed in).
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"Who loves orange soda?"
"Kel loves orange soda!"
"Everett True?"
"What?" -
Precisely.
And, as I say, we've got no idea what the opinions of those not signed in are.
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I still don't understand
why you felt the need to apologise to Everett True.
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The reason that threads grow
is down to controversy and disagreement - half of the pitchfork thread was people defending it, i would've thought the sunno))) one would be the same.
If people are incredibly positive about something, then someone with a differing view will want to put it forward. The stronger people feel about things, the bigger the response is.
Also, it strikes me that internet posting is a bit like road-rage - people don't have the capacity/feel the need to be polite in the same way as in other forms of communication, so things can get nasty very easily.
As someone has already noted - look at the music board now. Loads of positive threads and then you get a classic negative one slagging off Sigur Ros in just the way that sean is criticising.
It seems a shame that he's embarrassed of the posters, when he could just as easily be proud of a diverse and independent thinking group of participants.
Similarly, being self-deprecating about your writing jars a little when it's followed up with a flash of the sunday times credentials.
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and of course, the instigator of all this
has pissed off until he has something else to pimp on the boards.
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*i don't think he's responded to a single post from
anyone individually. shows how much respect he's got for the 'grand people of drowned in sound' or whatever the fuck it is.
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Maybe he's analysing our responses this very minute...
Internet journalism 2.dry
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If you can link to
an off-site article on a forum by posting a new thread about it, and get positive replies/comments on what you've written, then well done. You are an excellent writer.
Because that's how it is with internet stuff. There is so much content out there that every wasted click we make pisses us off. We know when you're trying to increase your ad views by linking to the article rather than copying and pasting it for our benefit. We know that our clicks put money in your pocket. And that's fine, but you'd better bloody make sure that what you've written is interesting, and more worthwhile than a 'slaying the sacred cow'-type piece on a band who most people have only lukewarm simmerings over anyway. Ah yes, those legions of rabid Sigur Ros fans. If you can't write something amazing enough to get our attention - which can happen, because there have been plenty of well-received posts containing nothing but a link to a blog (he he XDD) - if not, then don't call us, we'll call you.
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yeah
but that's because the bands I like are usually shit.
That's even the name of my blog... -
KiK hilarious ?
Since when ?
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I think KiK's one of the best posters on here
I seem to have almost nothing in common with him in terms of music, and he no doubt either a) has no idea who I am, or b) thinks I'm a total prick, but I think he's consistently very funny. Great at winding people up. Lacks quality control perhaps, but when he's good..
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lyles taste really doesn't correspond to most people on heres
I don't think its rare at all to have positive threads, I think all of my recent threads have been positive. It's hard to talk about bands or songs positively without sounding either gushing or inane anyway, I don't think its because we're all so negative or anything.
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2
Imagine if people went into this depth of discussion when talking about colours or smells they didn't like.
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My 2 thoughts (not that anyone care)
1. The article about Sigur Ros certainly didn't look like it was trying to spakle a discussion but instead like it was giving some sort of universal truth. Which is probably why he got so much negative comments instead of well-argued replies : why trying to argue with someone talking like God.
2. Yes, there always was negative threads on DiS and as they're usually about famous bands, they naturally get much more hits than positive threads about unknown bands. As a regular users of the music boards for years, I think it's much less negative than it was a couple of years ago (remember threads about Bloc Party/Editors...) but, on the other hand, threads about new/unknown bands seem to be far less in numbers and to get less and less replies (positive or negative, a negative reply is at least the proof someone care enough to give a listen). -
you know this whole
'no-one reads my threads', 'no one cares' sctick? yeah, it's getting irritating.
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I'm not talking about myself
(and yes, I'm irritating, which is normal as I'm french).
But look at the first 10 pages of music threads and you'll see what I'm talking about... -
perhaps i misunderstand the point of this
but aren't steven wells and charlie brooker both best known for their cynical views?
i find it a bit odd that they're both name-checked here.
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also, shock horror
people LIKE reading negative stuff. it raises a 'titter'. (that's titter, not twitter) it makes people react. positive reviews do not make people react. people just go 'oh, that's nice. maybe i'll give that a listen'. it doesn't encourage response.
this is the reason why the many many many positive threads on DiS are usually the ones with the fewest replies. a thread belittling a so-called sacred cow like sigur ros is obviously of major troll-material. for the purpose of someone directing readers to their blog or whatever, it's called 'linkbait'.
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Whilst the claim that the DiS music boards are relentlessly negative is unfair
I know plenty of casual readers of the site who have that exact perception- "full of hipster douches," "just pointlessly criticise everything." Although True's 'Defending the Indefensible' articles are tiresome and horrendously cliched and deserves the opprobrium it received, I think Sean may have a point.
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^ Every single thread sean mentions
gets so many replies because other people dispute the initial negative comments.
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Nah
Those people are just being ridiculously cynical. JUST LIKE WE ARE!
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I do wonder if some of Sean's response came from
the response to that infamous piece on Patrick Wolf, but to be fair that only highlights that point that many people have already mentioned that occasionally negativity can actually be quite entertaining, a little like this thread actually.
Saying that I've found most threads on the music board have represented both sides of an argument rather well and for all the Blur/Sunn o))) detractors there are usually enough people willing to stick up for the band to make it a interesting debate.
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Didn't read any of this
Who is Everett True? Just a blog 'personality'?