DJing not much harder than 'switching on a radio'
says ex WORD/ Q honcho David Hepworth in response to DJ Shadow http://whatsheonaboutnow.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/is-dj-allowed-to-get-artistic.html
- Relevant artist taggings:
- None
Thread not appearing correctly? Click here to rebuild | Report this
Twitter
Facebook
Last.fm
SoundCloud
MySpace
Friendster
RSS
Absolutely
DJ Krush is just a fucking hack.
It's a bit harsh but uttterly fair on DJ Shadow in that article.
The role and skill of a DJ in a club is to respond to judge the mood of the crowd and play music they want to hear. If you just want to play the records you want and ignore the crowd then you've got a fucking living room to do it in.
......................................
You can ... all you like.
I'll still be no less right on this.
I'v gotta totally disagree with that Paul!
I get booked at venues & clubs but people who know what sort of records I like & what I play. So irregardless of what the people want I go and play my records!
Mostly is goes down really well but no doubt if a played a mash up of Destiny's Child, Rihanna & Kanye for 2 hours it would go down better.
Sure but, as you say, the venue and club knows what you're going to do and the promoters will list and promote the night in terms of the type of music which you play.
And the promoters hopefully book you knowing you'll fit into the night so it makes sense for you to turn up and play your records and people get what they expect.
I admit I was a bit harsh on DJ Shadow on this initial post - I didn't realise at that point he'd been booked into completely the wrong kind of club (though I'd still say he should have people his end checking the booking out) and I'm not suggesting that everyone should just play pop music or go for the lowest common denominator - obviously people are at the night to hear a certain type of music and clearly they need to take responsibility if they turn up at a garage rock night hoping for Destiny's Child. But I still think, as a DJ, you've still got a responsibility to try and please the crowd within the confines of the night you've been booked for.
There are exceptions to this obviously. Like I know the whole point of your new night is to play obscure/avant-garde/experimental stuff you couldn't really DJ in a lot of clubs. And, given you've sold it to people in that way, it's completely fair enough to do that 'cos that's how you've sold the night. But, at the same time, surely the fact you've felt the need to set up a new night to play that kind of stuff shows that there are limits and expectations of what you can get away with playing at other nights you DJ at?
irregardless
Shadow was a bit silly for taking the booking more than anything
it really aint his scene that kinda jersy shore style douche palace it seems odd he said yes to playing. I don't think the promoters knew who they where booking or at least knew the name but didn't know the style he played. Its kinda like booking Status Quo to play techno club. He's not a regular juke box DJ he a scratch guy that plays all over the board always has been and he prob thought that was why he got booked I mean hes DJ Shadow one of the most famous DJs for doing that haha. There is only so much you can do as a DJ when your so out of place. Its more like Busted being booked to play some hip underground punk venue or something like that.
Yeah - I'd agree with that.
But I do think, once you have taken the booking are in that position, it's the DJ's role to try their best to respond to the crowd rather than vice-versa. I mean I totally get he was probably out of place but he was probably getting a fair wedge of cash to be out of place and presumably he'd have noticed things were going pretty badly from the crowd reactions...
there is only so much you can do
I mean he aint gonna have a bag full of David Guetta tracks, first he prob knew about it being a venue not for him was when he started to play since it didn't click when he took the booking haha. I mean get a hard techno DJ to play a kids party your gonna have tears a hard techno DJ doesn't do anything but just like a rock band doesn't play trance. He's just a fool for acctualy turning up, bar the fact this is the first time in years anyone has talked about Shadow so much haha.
I guess so - although I don't really see how this happens - surely someone at his booking agency should ask those questions...
I guess it's more the "this shit is too future for you" and the twatty Facebook post that does it for me. It does kinda sound to me like blaming the audience for not liking it when it was his/his booking agency's failure to check out the booking (along, of course, with the promoters' failure to book the right act) that caused the problems rather than it being the crowd's fault...
yeah
I mean hitting out on the crowd is a douche move but then the punters knew he was playing and still came only to abuse him so you know why not call the nob heads haha.
Plus I dunno if its the crowd that really wanted him out, I mean you can hear the odd aggresive noise from them in the vid but its just a clip and who knows if that noise was them reacting to an aggressive track he was obviously playing. I mean people whout stuff like boooooo/uurrrrrgh/fucccck when an aggresive track comes in the mix. It might have been the promoter changing their mind half way thru the set and calling it off. I think that club has had a history of kicking of DJs, I've heard of some funky house DJs with ligit chart hist at the time get booted off from their. Its just an all round odd setup.
i toatlly disagree with this
it's the promoter's responsibility to book an appropiate act.
Maybe but any commissioned job (and, once you're doing it for money, it is a commissioned job)
the first thing you should do is find out what the customer wants. Yeah, the promoter undoubtedly fucked up but that doesn't change the fact someone at the booking agency or his management or him or wherever should have screened out this booking and spotted that it wasn't suitable. Obviously it might be they did that but then decided it was worth doing anyway because fuck loads of money was being offered but, if that's the case, it'd a bit of a cheek to bleat about integrity after the event.
as a disclaimer i haven't actually read any of shadow's response to the show
so maybe he is acting like a dick, dunno.
I think i essentially disagree that the onus is on TEAM SHADOW to find out what the promoter / clubs expectations are.
I don't think i see it as a commission either, more like a rental.
Yeah, up to the promoter really
They booked DJ Shadow, he was the headline act, the name on all the posters. He's gon' do what Shadow does, and can only work the crowd to an extent.
He's not the first non-mainstream DJ to get kicked off at Mansion either. They clearly shouldn't be booking people like Shadow, Dennis Ferrer, Seth Troxler etc. to play there.
It's impossible to argue with that but DJ Shadow and/or his management or booking agency could easily have got that information about Mansion.
Obviously the Promoter should check out what they're booking but the act should also check out what they're accepting.
yeah it was a load of idiots making shit decisions
but then its the night club business, I wouldn't expect much logic.
Yeah, two way process for sure
In this case, I think the whole situation should be taken with a pinch of salt. From the videos it didn't even seem to be going down that badly, but it's Miami - probably some big dog in VIP just wanted the music changed.
the premise of his argument is correct
DJ's are booked to provide entertainment but, without knowing the specifics of what happened during DJ Shadow's set, it could also be argued that perhaps he wasn't the correct person to book for the event if all they essentially wanted was someone to play records, i.e I probably wouldn't book the x-ecutioners for a wedding disco.
also DJ != Turntablist
Jackson Pollock in 'that's not art it's just throwing paint at a canvas' shocker
the only bit of that i agree with is his statement that
djs are supposed to increase the happiness in a room.
beyond that he's reacting to one situation and tarring all djs (of all genres and levels and types) with the same idea.
folk who go and see ritchie hawtin, andrew weatherall, djs like that, would be highly unlikely to bound up to the booth and drunkenly demand a particular track. same with going to see dj yoda or dj shadow someone like that.
and sure, some big name (and not so big name) djs /are/ at it. ive read about david guetta and steve angello apparently just panging on a pre-mixed cd and just getting mashed and doing jesus poses in front of 10k+ people. that's shitty and showing no respect for the audience.
if you're djing in a pub, or one of those pub/clubs (as appears to be the case in the above situation), or a wedding reception (or other event of that type), sure, you'd best have a big bag of stuff folk will recognise as theyre not going to be interested in a 20 min blend of turkish prog and space disco. the folk there are there mainly to get mashed and get laid.
but playing a club night, youre going to expect the folk turning up to at least be interested in the music youre going to play, to be into it and show some degree of respect, to be interested in hearing different tunes or different ways of mixing stuff from that genre of music rather than the beatport top 20 or whatever the last MoS compilation was.
and if youre playing a club, you will need to be able to work the crowd, but that doesnt mean you have to succumb to playing a top 10 pop track if youre playing a bass night just because some drunk punter has rolled up demanding you play their favourite tune (the chances are theyll be too drunk to notice if youd played it anyway). one of my friends does this and its embarassing, and its happened enough that theres always someone in the group that has crazy on phone or mp3player to get her to stop trying to ruin other peoples evening.
can i just ask
how does an ex-editor of national music magazines not seem to know who DJ Shadow is?
is that not just a bit bizarre?
I didn't get that from the article.
Which part made you think he doesn't know who he is?
the general tone
but just from skimming it again - this bit stuck out
"...during the the long marches of the night you must surely realise that you make your living by putting on records, which is only a tiny bit removed in degree of difficulty from switching on the radio''
it just seems to totally ignore ALL of Shadow's production work, which is the very reason for why he is famous. He's not a famous DJ (really) he's a famous producer.
I didn't see that as not being aware of the fact he did that
more relating to the fact that, in this context, he's djing...
Well, I mean of course there is some skill in DJing,
like judging the mood of the room etc. But the elevation of the DJ to godlike status is one of the things about techno culture that will always be baffling to me.
no more godlike than any other instrument
a lot of good DJs also produce their own records, run labels etc.. and when they DJ they incorporate their own music, labels music etc with what they want. plus some use hardware n stuff live.
It sounds like you dont like techno..
plus watching someone DJ is no less or more tedious than watching someone play an acoustic guitar or whatever
Well, yeah, but you're still left with two things that are pretty tedious.
Especially when you could just dance to the DJ. The acoustic guitarist there's admittedly just no hope for.
even if you like the music that is coming from each either DJ or guitarist
they're both on a par visualy. I'm not fussed about watching any DJ DJ unless its someone badass at sractching like Shadow lol. Same goes for pretty much any band tho, I mean there is no visual exsitment in about 96% of bands but plenty get a godlike response. Its just the music init, its just some people put to much emphersis on a band being some kind of visual spectical when really its usualy just soem chubby blokes swagering small movements on a stage. Even if the music is quality.
Well, yeah, I'd agree with that.
Most bands are so visually crap there's pretty much no value in watching them even if you enjoy listening to the music. And at least DJs do tend to put a bit more effort to acknowledge that and provide something visually as a backdrop.
I guess the thing to me - admittedly as someone who's not a massive fan of dance music in general so may not know what he's talking about - is that the thing that seems most appealing in theory is the democracy of it - i.e. that the focus is on the songs themselves (and of course the producers) and the DJ is just the medium of getting those songs out to the audience. I'm not saying that there's anything inherently more ridiculous in the Godlike status of DJs compared to bands, just that the way that the focus of it means it'd be much easier to dispense with the Godlike figure and just focus on the music...
Yeah
there is a bit more freedom in DJing, you can pull from any record you like in theory. A lot of DJs do do that, play the crowd and do it really well and that is indeed really democratic in some ways. Jackmaster and Ben UFO are two of my favourite DJs for doing that at the moment. But alot of DJs and maybe even those two work in their own niche and even tho they cover a lot of ground genre wise and play with a crowd well they still do it within their own kinda sound. Some DJs specialise more than others and get book because they do just that. A lot are artists that are accidently DJs so they don't really have the skills to play a crowd they just want to showcase their sound and its the only way to do it for some. All these veriations can be reall ygood or suck hard it really depends.
If you go see DJ Shadow surely you expect more a gig with him playing stuff off his albums etc
rather than just putting on records.
It's like booking the Chemical Brothers and getting annoyed they don't play Rhianna.
both DJ shadow and the chemical brothers
do live shows and mix shows. both are great if you like the artist in question.
MORE bizzare is that David H was (still is?)
the head honcho of Development Hell which took ownership of Mixmag a few years back and Shadow has been on the *cover* of that so he must have heard of him.
you don't book shadow to play a set,
you book shadow to play /his/ set.
all else is fluff. meh. not fussed about his recent recorded output but his live show last year was one of the best gigs i've been to in recent times.
Anyone else not able to load the blog post in the OP ?
I could before, but I think he's taken it down now
Was probably getting mega spammed by angry DJs...
(It was a pretty woeful post as well, just came across as totally clueless and reactionary)
what a coward
DJ Shadow was given the hook by the promoter at a Miami nightclub recently. He explained to the crowd "they say this shit is too confusing for all y'all" and then surrendered the decks to somebody else. Times being what they are, it's all on YouTube, such as it is. He later said "I will never sacrifice my integrity as a DJ ever". Given his celebrity status you can only guess at how badly it must have been going down in the room for the promoter to intervene. Fellow DJ Erol Alkan later chimed in: "It's sad what people expect from djs these days: part kids entertainer, part jukebox". (Some of us would say, surely that's precisely what they are.) We would also say, you're a disc jockey, for goodness sake, not Pablo Casals. I know that you have had a certain amount of smoke blown up your fundament over your career but during the the long marches of the night you must surely realise that you make your living by putting on records, which is only a tiny bit removed in degree of difficulty from switching on the radio. Furthermore, there must be an implied social aspect to your trade.
If you take to the stage to play records then you are entering into a sort of contract. You must accept that your job is to increase the amount of happiness in the room rather than reduce it.
!
If the audience don't like it then you must accept that they are right, you are wrong and you should immediately reach for the record that they wish to hear, no matter how wounding it might be to your self-image.
hey.
You've been at my DJ nights. You know that's not how it works.
that's from the article silly!
i can only imagine your reaction if someone suggested that to you at one of your nights.
I tell them I will put their song on
then play Prurient really loudly and stare at them.
that's what i thought
do you remember when one of trix point never told us we were the best djs ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i thought he was a weird tramp or something
he pretty much almost said that
and he pretty much did look like a tramp.
It was a fair mistake to make on both sides.
where's our article eh?
typical
Doesn't his 'argument' there also apply to bands?
What a consummate cretin.
If the audience don't like it then you must accept that they are right, you are wrong and you should immediately reach for the record that they wish to hear
-
that was about the size of it
DJs getting dragged off mid set is a relatively recent phenomenon
as the pet Shop Boys interview in Mixmag mentioned recently http://www.mixmag.net/words/features/above-beyond-in-conversation-with-the-pet-shop-boys
Reading this thread
Fairly closes I'd say the people arguing against Shadow and pro the fucking ridiculous article it's linking too probably don't go to clubs and watch good DJ's with any regularity and your opinion of a DJ is a basically a laptop guy at a house party.
Get yourself to Corsica Studios, Fabric, XOYO, Plastic People etc and get find out what it's all about!
Thing is I've never massively enjoyed it.
I have gone clubbing (not so much now as when I was younger) and have seen various massive DJs (mostly more house and hip-hop DJs admittedly but I have seen DJ Shadow) and its just never really clicked for me. Which obviously doesn't inherently make them bad and I accept lots of people enjoy them but personally I'd actually way, way, way, way rather just watch someone who just plays records I enjoy, regardless of their technical skills.
PS the article is poorly-written crap btw.
I don't actually think he's putting an argument very well and the claim DJing's not much harder than switching on a radio is bollocks. I just think DJs do have responsibility to audiences (by which, to be clear, I mean that you have to mostly play stuff you think the majority of people in the room will enjoy - not that you should be any obligation to placate the drunk twat who tries to get you to play Don't Leave Me This Way by the Communards)
keep going and you'll almost pull a 360.
AKA you completely misunderstood my argument in the first place.
But well done for trying.
not my fault if you oversimplify your argument.
What choice did I have? I knew you might be reading it.
That is a very poor piece of writing
It's worth reiterating. Or was, I should say.
Really, very very poor.
So this thread made me put on Endtroducing
Thanks, thread.
Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist.
read my 2 posts from 14 34 and 14 35 for the original blog text
At the level I DJ at, yeah I can buy that
There's a few technical things you need to know but mostly the skill is in song selection.
And yes , you need to tailor it. I've done paid for stuff where you have to throw principles out the window and play to the crowd. Cos that's what you're there for.
but if you're booking an act of DJ Shadow's size, stature and reputation, then you are booking them for their set. Expecting them to start cranking out the hits is idiotic.
Precisely this.
If you just want a DJ that will play the hits and take requests, why would you spend a big sum on booking DJ Shadow, when you could get a much less expensive DJ to do exactly the same job? You wouldn't book a famous band and expect them to play a set of well-worn covers.
It's ridiculous that this is even being discussed.
I can't be arsed to read that
BUT there are two different things right that can meet sometimes
like the artist DJ meeting the bloke who is picking the records that will make people dance
There was a cool Hieroglyphic Being interview where he was going on about getting a job DJing in a bar by playing Simply Red records etc. But he still plays his own nights where you get the full Hieroglyphic Being experience. Or maybe he thinks they are both the same. I dunno
Every morning on the metro I am faced with Mick Hucknall's orgasmsingface
http://www.israbox.com/uploads/posts/2012-10/1351343554_mick-hucknall-american-soul-2012.jpg
dislike
No comment on most of this, except:
a band/musician/artist who walks into a bad situation and suffers is normal. One who walks into a bad situation and somehow thrives is great.
We could all think of examples where a gig that should have been terrible ended up being great for some reason (see the 'badly-attended gigs' thread for some evidence), and Shadow had just such an opportunity. Did he take it?
bit difficult
when you are restricted to the records in your bag. Or on your laptop even. That's all been said up thread already
Unless what, he could have mixed between soundcloud and youtube streams off his two phones?
f'real?
who knows
he might have won them back if he got to play the full set too, dunno how long he ended up playing.
Sure, why not?
Why not try something insane? It seems he didn't have much to lose, as he was already playing what he wanted anyway, regardless of the crowd's taste. And yeah, who knows if he could have turned it around, too bad he didn't get the chance (or maybe it would have been worth the publicity to be hauled off by security still gripping his turntables).
Nah, if he'd whacked on a 2hr Guetta mix on youtube, and people lost their shit to it
that wouldn't really elevate him to a 'great' artist.
very good point re
thriving in a bad situation. although shadow was pulled off so dunno if he had much chance to thrive as such.
This blog post seems to be gone
I assume sanity has prevailed.
mmhm it had gone by 4 pm this afternoon
Sometimes you do despair at the public though
I DJ'd a lot when I lived in Saigon, putting on what were probably the first classic soul/funk nights in the city since the Americans bailed out in 1973 - you'd get a fair few people showing up who were into the music or were happy to hear something different from what other venues were playing, but you'd still get tossers asking for Black Eyed Peas or Akon & getting shitty when you say no.
I also DJd a bar/restaurant opening a few months back & towards the end some woman came over & said "Can you play David Guetta? We want something we can DANCE to!" I was playing James Brown at the time. FFS. So I followed it up with the Orb mix of Primal Scream's Higher than the Sun as I only had 10 minutes left. Dance to that, bizzatch.
as a retired dj, play to your audience.
afterwards I'd go home, put the headphones on, open a bottle of bourbon & maybe a small spliff & play my own sets for 3 hours. The crowd was happy, I got paid, plus I satisfied my own needs.
I'm pretty sure from skimming through this thread that no one has made
a joke about DJ Shadow being pulled off.
Very disappointing.
He would have his set worked out and how he is going to mix it (perform it) just like any other musician would!
Haven't read the link but I'm guessing Shadow is a bit of a purist, if so probably mixes with vinyl. So may not have had a ' for all occasions - including weddings and bar mitzvah's ) selection in his record box.
Either way, he would have the set worked out and know how long he would play each track for before he starts to integrate the next track ( ie, not pressing stop on one turntable and start on the next turntable).