Oliver_Wright

.. their first LP with Albini. I can't BELIEVE that nobody has mentioned it yet. It's stunning!

And the absolutely amazing 'The Curtain Hits The Cast' - Low never got any deeper than that.

And the track Caroline from 'Long Division' is just bewilderingly good.

I find 'I Could Live In Hope' a bit underdeveloped compared to Long Division, which, again, pales in comparison to 'Curtain Hits...' and 'Secret Name'. Those were the two albums that hit me the hardest.

Totally unique.

What I loved about it was its depth - the bands really got treated, the musicians celebrated.

I met Matt Dornan once, at a show I played with my old band in London. I was under the impression that nobody gave a shit about us, but Matt had listened to all of our demos and politely hectored me about the fact that we hadn't recorded an album yet! That meant the world to me.

Let's hope that DiS, among others, can carry a little of the CwaS spirit on and that Matt returns in some new guise.

The Vic gives young Derby bands an opportunity to play, just to their mates when their starting out, then with touring bands as they start to come on - I'd feel like I'd lost my favourite uncle if that place closed down...

Where else is there good to play in Derby these days? I hear that Ponce do good work.

Plans and Apologies, Twinkie, The Dust Collectors... Looks like I might have to get the Trans Peak and get myself home for the weekend.

"Shit on the Forest... Shit on the Forest beloooow"

;-)

Michael Diver is the best writer DiS have got.

'Unsatisfied' - amazing song by The Replacements, one of the most gutwrechingly soulful moments on 'Let It Be'.

'Over The Ocean' - one of the most beautiful songs in the Low back catalogue. On 'The Curtain Hits The Cast' LP.

'Twas a tremendous show, one of the best I've attended in a long time .. Nice review, Craig.

I think it's a brilliant track!

(To Jerobe, not Crablin!)

Amen.

Absolutely correct on most points. I boycott Starbuck's - very interesting to see the way they're expanding in Manchester at the moment - the amount of outlets they are about to open is stunning. I think we must have ten of them now. However, my local shop is a Sainsbury's, it's two minutes from my door and stocks everything I need. So in I pop, rather than take the ten minute walk up to the greengrocers the other way (when I lived near them, however, I did - and found the produce was pretty shabby. And then went back to the Somerfield across the way.)

The system we live in obviously depends upon capital - if you have the start-up capital, you can finance a project which will beget you more capital and the most important thing is to freeze out competition. Seeing a Starbuck's clean-up operation in real time is quite awe-inspiring, actually. 'Oh my God - they're opening ANOTHER ONE!' - another independent outlet, say, a bookshop, or a menswear retailer, disappears and is replaced by the chain store.

Back to music. Good small bands are, of course, picked up by the music industry, inspected for signs of commercial use and dropped when they fail to cut the mustard. That is very sad. Independent labels or collectives are vital because they simply exist for the music, not necessarily for money making schemes. Akoustik Anarkhy are a good Manchester example - they've helped to push The Longcut and Nine Black Alps along, by giving them good gigs, flagwaving and generally drawing attention to what they're up to. Two bands have been picked up out of their bunch so far. Hopefully, those bands will have enough character about them to resist attempts to shape them - I have a very strong feeling that one of them has the balls to do something extraordinary, whether the other does, time will tell.

Independent labels are the real lifeblood of music in this country. Small communities of friends, helping each other out, cross-pollinating, getting to the heart of what it is that they love - these artistic communities at grassroots level are the source of encouragement for any good band - once a band is offered a lot of money and a big contract, well, they've 'transcended' (not sure I agree witt he choice of word, actually) that scene and been 'promoted' to national attention. Some bands never take that extra step - doesn't necessarily mean they ain't great, just that sadly, most people will never come across them.

Mozart was a child prodigy, making music and having adults exploit it before he was old enough to shave.

I don't agree with you that we 'need' mass pop to act as some sort of cover for the really good stuff - an overground for us to define ourselves against - in the same way that I find serious fault in Colin's supposition that without the music industry we would have no music - "To complain about the industry is to further the supposed destruction of our passion, music." - supposed destruction? Supposed by who? But music was here before the music industry and if capitalism fell, somebody would tell the story in a song afterwards. Shame it couldn't have been Johnny Cash.

I remain calm, focused and feel very positive at the moment, thanks. How are you?

They're the sound of Hype.

For anyone who hasn't already, dig The Curtain Hits The Cast, if you ever get a chance.... And I'll assume everybody knows and loves Secret Name.

I met a guy the other night called Nathan Amundson, who plays solo by the name of rivulets. He's really good. One man with a moody acoustic, a reverb tank and a Marshall amp. Alan Sparhawk played on and recorded his two LPs to date and there's a new EP out currently, which is well worth checking out.

Scratch that about growing up - I had no right to say it. I'm too tired - there was no need for it... Sorry.

I understood Colin's article perfectly well and took issue with it, on several points where I considered his thinking to be exceptionally dodgy.

Yeah, fair enough, there are bigger evils than Busted, but this one relates to the music industry, so I thought I'd mention it. It seemed pertinent. Yes, I do have an interest in the way that the culture works. I hoped somebody might have something else to say on it and I'm not so cynical that I won't question it or express my distaste for certain of its machinations.

A CD is not just a promotional tool. It's a band's art in a format. It's an artistic statement if it's any good - it's the fruit of somebody's labours and yeah, their way of getting by too. It can be a beautiful thing. Kind of why I own a few.

No, I'm not so naive as to say yes to your final question, but I think there are limits. I don't think the NUT would have blown the whistle had it just been a case of 'kids with stickers'. Teachers are pretty well placed to determine the effects of stunts of this nature on the groups placed in front of them. And it was obviously causing concern.

Right. Punk does not equal pointless rage, but - if you are genuinely being yourself and doing what you want to do, you will get a reaction out of people. You have to be ready for that. Speaking your mind is a punk thing to do and it may turn out that yr thoughts are inflammatory / antagonistic. It could do, was all I was saying. If you see something you disagree with, then speak up. See what happens. Take action. If you're happy with your position on a subject, yr more likely to voice it and have the confidence to stand by it, I think.

I do see your point about the phony stereotype of punks as angry agitators.

No compromise doesn't mean no evolution - it just means doing and saying what you believe and staying true to yourself. I think you learn more that way, by getting things off your chest and getting a response. It's often a more difficult path to take and others may not like it, but it's surely more rewarding, ultimately.

I like your punk equation. I hadn't thought of it in that way. You'd be a cool, enlightened person if you were able to be that way all the time. Still, taking influence from other people is actually a good idea, though.

The article Colin wrote wound me up, because there were more than one glaringly debatable points in there.

Never mind.

OK, I apologise if I upset you, or anybody else. My initial email was unacceptable. However, my position is not a load of pointless crap, in the same way as your position is not a load of pointless crap (which was why I thought it might be worth debating, but never mind). It means as much to me as your feelings mean to you.

And rather than being 'pointlessly negative', I made some valid points about Colin's article, which I thought was a load of rubbish. And you referred to me as a fascist, which was even more inflammatory and stupid than me calling Colin a 'bellend' (which I have apologised for).

I don't understand why you say 'God forbid anybody be an individual'. And I resent you calling my point of view 'bullshit thinking'. I suggest you grow up.

Now, let's just forget it.

PS - There are no objective truths when it comes to art; just subjectivity.

Dear Colin,

I am glad that you enjoy the music of Busted and that it makes you smile, dance and sing. That is beautiful. Now explain to me how that makes YOU superior to ME.

I apologise for calling you a bellend. That was pretty childish. But for having the temerity to disagree with you, I have been called a fascist and characterised as inferior - you have adopted an incredibly patronising tone and misquoted me to suggest that I advocate censorship. I resent this.

I am glad that you contribute a lot of your time and energy to the upkeep of the site. It's a cool thing to do. If I didn't have to work full-time and if I lived in London, I'd love to do something similar. My contribution is to play my own music, write for DiS and Plan B as and when I can, put on gigs... So hey, I guess I do my bit too! I find it a bit odd that you come onto DiS to promote Busted, but if that's what floats yr boat, then so be it. I just hope that you can see my point - that Busted represent a reallly, really bad thing to me.

When you say "to complain about the industry is to further the supposed destruction of our passion, music.", I cannot help but react. That is so wrong. Please explain your position further, I would like to have the debate.

I wasn't saying that Busted should be censored - I was saying that an element of the marketing technique applied to Busted by the corporation who pull their strings was grossly immoral and should not be allowed to continue. I would like to thik that there could be some more discussion about this point too. Before we're old enough to shave, we're being bombarded with product, be it Busted, Barbie dolls, or Bob The Builder - this is the nature of the society we live in. Should we permit labels to recruit little Busted team leaders to go around plugging their products in schools? Surely not. I think that it's stunningly exploitative of the instinct of children to look up to their peers and to want to be a part of the social group. These are the means by which Busted product was so widely sold.

There's a wider debate to be had about marketing here. I made this point in my previous email. You chose to ignore it, so I assume that you are not interested in the devious means by which the product you defend is marketed.

I would like to think that this wipes the smug grin off your face and provokes some much needed thought about your position.

Ollie

Brilliant, Catwank. Not only do I have the temerity to hold an opinion on a SUBJECT (what, so you deal in 'objective' truths, do you? Your going to have to be a lot tighter than that, mate), but holding that opinion makes me a - that's right, kids - a fascist!

Pissing on 'everyone else's parade' - because obviously, everybody agrees with you (and I notice you retreat to the position of 'we', rather than sticking your neck out and saying what you (singular) think. Safety in mumbers - back to the herd).

The dominant DiS paradigm - OK, what is the dominant DiS paradigm? I'd like to talk about that.

>>>>But then good journalism should be balanced >>>anyway I suppose. (Colin)

Agreed, in terms of NEWS journalism, but cultural criticism of the nature of DiS cannot be balanced, because it is impossible to hold a balanced opinion about a piece of art. The very act of writing about music is setting down an opinion. You should just say exactly what you think and if people disagree, great! That leads to debate, which is a good thing - and frowned upon in fascist and other totalitarian states, incidentally.

>>>'If the elitist indie snob-set were to use its energy in a positive fashion, ranting about a fantastic band whom they saw playing last night or the new record they just bought >>>that few have heard, >>>maybe the industry would slowly sway in their favour, but the negativity prevails. It seems to be a lot easier to knock music than to get excited about >>>it. To complain >>>>about the industry is to further the supposed destruction of our passion, music.' (Colin)

Two points here. a)I just don't see the problem with a bit of negativity! It's fun and funny to slag off bands that you think are shite. People do it to help identify who they are - that's like that and I HATE it - in the same way as people identify themselves with things that they like. There is nothing wrong with being bitchy. It's often hilarious. Anyway, the elitist indie snob set, whoever they are - kind of establish their identities by going to gigs, buying and advocating records, wearing badges, t-shrts, slogans, using themselves to promote things that they enjoy! The indie kids I know and love are always telling me about this band or that band who they like.

b)So what, the industry = music? Boy, are we fucked, then. Of course, a lot of people who start bands have the dream of signing a recording contract with a big label and making big money - but that's not what it's all about, is it? It's about getting up there and expressing yourself, your unique worldview, yr ability to turn thought into sound - what could be more special than that? it's magic, alchemy. Music was here before record labels. Music does not equal the industry. The industry looks to exploit our love of music for cash. The odd kid gets very rich for doing exactly what he wants to do, a lot more hearts get broken.

'Indie', in my subjective opinion (sorry about that - unlike some, far wiser people, I speak for myself, not the entire human race) is simply an abbreviation of 'independent'. As a concept, 'indie' was bought by the majors in the mid '90s and all of a sudden, loads of 'indie' kids were being handed recording contracts - mostly, their groups were ghastly. All that happened because of one band - Oasis - who made an LP that millions of people got into. The industry, great lumbering dinosaur that it is, reacted. "They want guitar bands with bad hair - we'll give them guitar bands with bad hair." Missing the obvious point that it was THAT band that people loved and you can't just substitute in any old generic replacement and say 'Will they do?' That's what the industry does. Some band comes along and creates something magical, they try to produce loads of clones of it, in an attempt to cash in on the zeitgeist. So yeah, maybe you're right. Indie has been rendered pretty meanngless by the industry, I think.

I perceive that about the music industry and I dislike it.

My hive mentality - wow! I wish. I have a hive mentality..... No, I speak for myself. I don't really care if other people disagree, but if they talk to me sensibly, they might just change my way of thinking. Which would be to do me a real favour. That's the good thing about posting on forums.

And I don't really give a flying fuck about Busted - so, they split up. It's hardly a victory for the 'elite indie crack anti-industry corps'. The industry already has their replacement lined up. They had a limited shelf-life - one of them's moved onto another 'band', with a slightly older sounding name, so he can keep his career going (If he writes some good music, he could have a long career. He has an opportunity to say anything he likes, theoretically).

Busted were just there to be bought by a certain group of kids and fashions change. The new generation, looking to establish itself, will obviously react against their older siblings and reject the product which they hoovered up. The Man is preparing the ultimate band for this new generation - and, until the lid got lifted by the NUT, they would have been repeating the trick that they pulled whilst marketing Busted and McFly - bribing 12 year old kids to go round the classroom recruiting new fans for them. That is despicable.

OK, yeah, let's talk about punk. No, I don't particularly like The Sex Pistols, although they're a fascinating part of English cultural history which I must look into further. I much prefer The Buzzcocks (Manchester's finest, IM(subjective)O) - Pete Shelley's a genius. I like The Buzzcocks and see them as an exemplary punk band because they were really themselves and they spoke up. They were noting to do with the silly, oi, thing which a lot of punk seems to be. They were brave enough to be emotional and sing about love in a really macho, testosterone filled arena. I see punk as just having the spirit, the audacity, if you like, to be yourself and be original - and never to compromise. And if that means shouting up against something you despise, then to have the guts to do that. If you say it well enough, people might agree with you. Then, you've made a positive out of a negative and effected change. Which is pretty radical.

Well, one drunken email getting back from the pub late turns into a thesis. That'll learn me! No, I've actually really enjoyed stating a position and thinking through what I said - I still think that DiS writers shouldn't bother concerning themselves with mass marketed merch and should be out there, championing the stuff that they love THAT ISN'T GETTING BLANKET COVERAGE ON EVERY NATIONWIDE TV CHANNEL AND RADIO PROGRAM AT PEAK TIMES. This was why I reacted strongly to there being a massive front page article on this particular band.

Absolutely fascinating that Catwank barely, barely, stops short of slagging me off personally because of the antithetical nature of MY cultural position. And I have to accept that I did overstep the mark in that way myself. I was drunk when I did the original email and would like to apologise to Colin for calling him a bellend. That was unacceptable and childish. But I've learned from it, so it wasn't such a bad thing, in the end.

So, you tried to shut me up by calling me a fascist and accusing me of being subjective - and to intimidate me by using big words - woo, paradigm! The effect of that was actually to get me thinking and help me to develop my ideas. So thanks very much. Free speech is great.

I would very much encourage a continuation of this debate and it'd be cool if you emailed back. Fee free to send me a personal note if you'd rather.

Good lad.

Proves nothing.

I was under the impression that this site was a forum for journalists and music fans to get excited about new music. That's what goes on on the site every day, whilst Colin nurtures some weird fetish for a bunch of stage school brats doing a tightly choreoraphed 'job', singing the songs the Man wants very young children to like (lest we forget - they have already started to turn school children into their very own mini marketing whores - read http://drownedinsound.com/articles/10921.html).

Busted = corporate product of the sort that does not need to be discussed on a new music website. It is not new music, it is the most naked of pop exploitation exercises. (Directly marketed at minors - that shit ought to be getting banned, what with it being ethically disgusting.) This is why we indie snobs consider them to be evil scum. Obviously it is 'commercially successful', shifts units. That does not make it good. What the fuck does that have to do with this website and its mission statement of uncovering stuff that is new, exciting and different? Christ, you'll be telling me that Keane are good next. Or Coldplay.

Colin's point - 'This is very commercially successful and therefore very good.' Isn't that the sort of equation that DiS exists to challenge? Fucking cosying up to the man. What happened to the PUNK spirit?

So, to reiterate, bollocks to Colin and bollocks to his point. He is a corporate beeyatch and the Man loves his cute little butt!

Sometimes, a bit of bile can be just as conducive to creativity as a barrel of enthusiasm. (Point - counter point - debate)

xxx

Bellend. anybody prepared to write atribute to Busted is a complete bellend. This site is becoming a travesty.

Absolutely nothing is real. It's dizzying.

Once all of our children are trained to be chattering little PR idiots, what will we do then? Pluck the best to make their money out of popular music and other such marketable, pointless dross, stick the rest in massive, city sized callcentres to scrape a living together out of data.

I'm starting to see the value of retro sci-fi as contemporary future vision - see how the people of the 50s looked at the future, their fears! (ie, things like Daleks - don't laugh - machines taking over. Brains in glass jars directing operations.) Now, look at what I fear - and, I suppose, what I will work to prevent. Or will I? Or will I end up in that Data City, pushing numbers and praying that I'm not reborn in Africa once this bullshit existence finally gets snuffed out?

I wonder if I'll live to see the dawn of the Chinese Empire? And will they do it any differently?

Still, back to topic; surely there should be an age of consent for corporate sodomy. Do they bypass employment law by giving the little future 'Team Leaders' CDs instead of cash money? Even more profitable for them, seeing as a £15 cd costs them about a quid to make.

The music industry is killing music. The time is now to strike back. Shame I haven't got the guts.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't know anymore. Why did reading that article depress me so badly? Don't even feel angry anymore. I'll just go home and listen to some other massmarketed creep, like Lou Reed, Bob Dylan or David Bowie - switch my head off for a while.

I've changed my mind. I love marketing. No, it's not love, it's admiration. The sort of sickly respect that the oppressed have for their tyrant. PR people know exactly how the world works and have adapted to it perfectly. They are brilliant. Maybe they don't like it anymore than I do, but they have brains enough to realise that money is EVERYTHING.

Why are there advertisements on this website?

That's psychedelic.

record(s) shins (was that really this year?) stereolab
- gig arthur lee and love, manc academy
- band / new band - the longcut
- mags - plan b
- websites - www.therams.co.uk, www.slsknet.org
- places - lover's island, anglesey
- misc. - neil young

Good track, good video, go seek.

Brian McMahan, Britt Walford and David Pajo are all playing. That'll do me fine.

I'm in trouble with my mates, cos I fucked up and didn't get ATP tickets in time - other people fannying about cost me my place there - so I bought a ticket for the Forum show as soon as I found out about it. I'll go on my own, if necessary. Really looking forward to it, personally.

Do yrself a favour, flog yr Manics tickets and crack open a bottle of red at home in honour of the man...

I am still feeling really sad about John Peel's untimely passing. He was an inspiraton to so many and gave genuinely original art a place on national radio. Radio 1 must, must, must carry on his work - you cannot replace the man, but a tean of music fanatics should get a couple of hours a night, to play the glorious, the esoteric, the different, the independent, the otherwise ignored.

Fuck daytime radio, it's a blight on the national consciousness. A rotating playlist of about ten new pop singles and then a bunch of aging pop hits from Travis, or whoever.

Bollocks to them and their shite.

It's impossible to pick a best Dylan song.

Good that he's recognised as the best songwriter who's ever walked the States, though.

Read 'Chronicles'! It's fuck'n top.

Imagine is unlistenable.

Arr, kid.

I'd just like to register my objection to that facile comment at the end about Warp records featuring power drills and washboards. What an ignorant thing to say.

However, lapse in quality control from Warp, here> Heard some mp3's of Maximo Park from the website and couldn't believe how bland they sounded.

>>>This week has seen the untimely death of Brian Clough - a true maverick it has to be said in a profession of overpaid yes-men - and yet already over the past few days scenes of Princess Di-mania has hit >>>>the East Midlands.

I couldn't give a rat's arse about Pete Doherty, but as a Derby fan, feel moved to comment.

I think this was a very unfortunate and actually quite weak parallel to draw. There was no Princess Di-esque nonsense about Cloughie - just a genuine respect for what that man did for our region. When he became Rams manager in '67, he inherited a go nowhere Second Division team and turned them into the Champions of England, taking them to the last four of the European Cup, from a tiny little muckheap of a ground. My Dad was there.

Yes, we had a drink in his name and yes, we mourned his passing. He was a real man who believed in what he did with total passion and was possessed of innate drive. He had no time for quitters and losers. No excuses. He wanted to be the best and he managed to inspire those around him to feel the same way.

If only we had a few more musicians like that. We wouldn't have this pathetic wastrel and excuse for a rock-n-roller Doherty that everybody's so bothered about on the front page of the webzine then.

>His arrangements intertwine at such pace and >complexity, it’s a wonder Wilson didn’t rip his head of >in frustration and confusion – exactly how does one >contain this sort of creation, let alone share it with the >rest of the world?

Well, it takes thirty-seven years.....

Wilson kind of did 'rip his head off'', hence Smile only arrives now and not at its point of conception.

Although the bootleg of 'Child Is The Father of the Man' is unmatchable, sadly, it was a great moment to walk down Market St in Manchester and hear 'Heroes and Villains' booming out of the front of a record store.... This music is too good to remain the precious secret of the privileged few and I'm very glad it's been released.

Everybody should own a copy.

Hi, from Anal Corner.

Ella Guru take their name from one of the standout tracks of Captain Beefheart's startling 'Trout Mask Replica' LP. Zappa produced it, but it's all the work of Don Van Vliet.

More importantly, thanks for the review - I'd intended to be there and was gutted to miss it. Sounds like it should be back next year, hopefully the start of a much needed annual antidote to the corporate fuckfest that is Reading/Leeds.

>>>BLOC PARTY >>>They’re so hot right now! We’ve >>>been banging on >>>about them at DiS since last >>>summer (look at us… >>>we’re so hot right now too!).

So hot, that when I dared to give them a bad review a couple of months ago, it got censored!

Oh fuck it. I'll probably regret posting this.

I don't tend to bother rating bands anymore.... Unless it's to give them 5/5. I got really into when I started DiSsing, though.

I think Frances is probably the best music writer that I've ever read.

Don't be so bloody anal - marking bands out of 5 sucks anyway. The songs are occasionally stellar, always very good. I think the dust has settled aorund them a bit now and they don't seem quite as magical as they did. Seeing your pissed best mate hugging Marty Crandall is enjoyable, but takes the mystery away, perhaps!

I won't have the same amount of anticipation for the next record as I did chutes, but then, I doubt they'll take so long to make it. I hope the nex one goes up a notch. And I think they need to toughen up a touch.

For a more considered discussion of The Earlies, go to www.planbmag.com and read Frances May Morgan's live review.

Will check em when I get home from work (no sound on net here)

I like the manifesto on their website - from the sound of that and the fact that they've signed to Warp, I deduce that they must be good. What they like, MM?

Yeah, basically. I don't dispute the right of any band (or indeed any individual in any artform) to consider themselves as artistically motivated, as opposed to perceiving what they do as a job, or (worse) a 'hobby'.

Who are the so-called art-rockers, as according to NME? I don't read it. To me, art-rock comes from sources such as Television (hence my review of them, in which I descrive them as 'the paragon of art-rock bands', Sonic Youth, Tortoise, Stereolab, Can - bands who it is fruitless to compare anybody else to, bands who other bands aspire to be influenced by. Innovators in their field, who have left a genuine body of artistic labour behind, who have achieved the artistic dreams of beauty and originality.

I think it's a shame if art rock is used as a media whore term to flog a few retro skinny guitar merchants lame-ass records.

Squarepusher is an artist (if not an artrocker). Warp's a great place to find genuine artists (It really pisses me off when American major labels refer to their pampered pop kittens as artists... But hey...)

"Beauty is truth and truth beauty
That is all you shall know on earth
And all you need to know."

>>>>I hate Michael MooreOh, and I hate John Pilger too, just not quite as much.

Who do you like?

It is brilliant. I cannot get enough of 'Sudden Stars', especially. It is brilliant. That is all.

I'd say, bad idea for band members to come on msg boards; inviting trouble on yrself. Let the plebs get on with debating what you do and rise above it.

Art-rock. Rock as an art form. As you describe a painting as a work of art, or a piece of creative writing, or a sculpture, as art. What's wrong with that?

I presume the argument is that to qualify rock music with the prefix 'art' is pretentious, because it seeks to draw a line between itself and the popular (vernacular, you could say - I'd describe that as Stereophonics, or Travis, music that is earnest, crafted and aspires to nothing more than being whistled along to). Art aspires to beauty and originality. Art is good. Art rock is good rock, to my mind.

Rock is pretentious, arguably more pretentious than any other art form (so let's argue about it). It's full of half-educated, half-intuitive manifestos, groups who see themselves as fundamentally better than everything else around them. Of course it's pretentious. It is also glorious.

I have to say that I don't consider Bloc Party to be all that. Didn't enjoy their recent live set in Manchester at all. They sounded a bit Clashy on Peel when I heard 'em, but live they just sounded limp.

Anybody off to see them in manchester?