John_Doran

I listened to it twice when I first received it. Then four or five times again after NME commissioned me to do it.

I'm not going to get drawn into any kind of argument about this and I wish James nothing but the best - he knows that it's just opinion at the end of the day - but I get kind of rankled at the suggestion that I review stuff without listening to it.

Anyway, vive le difference. John Dx

Have a good weekend.

"I'm sure you'd all agree the article would look hideously out of place in any newspaper - why should the editorial and linguistic standard of music journalism be so base?"

I'm not writing for a newspaper though, I'm writing for a website. Different format. I've written for all the nationals before as a news and features writer so I'm guessing I'm in a better position than you to judge what is or isn't acceptable in terms of formatting.

Swearing, as any fule kno, is older than any monotheistic, Christian belief system that would be recognizable today. Check your ancient Chinese and Egyptian history. The idea that blasphemous, profane or shocking imagery in journalism, pamphleteering, poetry, literature etc is wrong is completely erroneous. In my corner I have Shakespeare, Chaucer, James Joyce, Tom Wolfe, Hunter Thompson, Martin Amis etc. In your corner you have The Daily Mail. Congratulations.

If you wish to debate a decline in standards then lets use something useful like defining the reading age of my piece, or pointing out where the bad grammar it etc.

(Something that I'll apply to your opening post, as it is poorly written, if you like.)

"Why are you limiting this to current religions?"

Because none of the followers of Ug God Of Mangrove Trees are claiming to be upset.

"The recognition, whether man-made or not, of a higher being goes back much farther than the slave trade"

No it doesn't.

""subjugation of women" (which I would argue was often not opposed by women of the time, and was, more often, a repectful attempt to define the relevant positions of men and women in society)."

Wow. You utter, utter cunt.

"Also, your issue with any of the replacement words above stems from what?"

You clearly made the risible claim that just because religion is old it deserves respect and you suggest that by sheer dint of its age there must be something in it. Which is bullshit.

I haven't claimed to have produced a "metaphorical work of genius" - I'm not sure what one of those is. What I have done is come up with a relevant eye catching headline, which I was fully aware that some (maybe more religious than myself) readers might initially think 'What the fuck?' before reading it and going 'Ah, I see what he's driving at, even though the language is a bit ripe.'

FUCK ME. Do you need everything spelling out for you, you tedious, whining, cock juggling, pant pissing, stripy trouser wearing, big bearded ghost in the sky worshipping little thunder cunt?

(Actual, ahem, LOL, at the naval gaze gag.)

Replace the word God with "rape", "warfare", "subjugation of women", "abuse of the working classes", "slavery", "the perceived superiority of lighter skinned peoples" and you can start to see the faintest of problems with this guy's argument.

Well, quite.

I've written since I swapped my altarboy's cassocks for some tabs of LSD in 1987, should create such antipathy from such a holy-minded individual.

But then that's Christians for you eh? Always falling over themselves in a rush to get upset about stuff, without parsing the actual meaning of what's being said.

"But mummy! He said that lazy people who were priveleged with good jobs were insulting God by not trying harder! Boo hoo!"

Also, what's wrong with anticipating criticism? An album like this is certainly going attract a lot.

What I am interested in is why music is held in less regard than painting, say. I've just finished reading 'Fear Of Music: Why People Get Rothko But They Don't Get Stockhausen' by David Stubbs and am thinking about the subject a lot.

'Sound art' (as opposed to be music which is art) I guess, takes place in an art gallery or is designated as such by a self-appointed artist.

Whether stuff is art or not is a redundant question. Anything you or I say is art, is art. The question should be whether stuff is good art or not.

Well, I kind of agree. I'm certainly not interested in using the art/just music distinction in reviews and to the best of my knowledge I never have done.

The Twang are more 'arty' than they realise. All that reverb on a semi acoustic Les Paul makes them sound a bit like a 4AD band circa Dead Can Dance.

No worries. I'm a bit upset about the news about Plan B.

I know what you mean and I'm firmly against any kind of elitism in music or music criticism but I also hate the idea that someone reading this might go and blow £30 on the vinyl and go 'What the fuck? This is just noise!'

I hope loads of people get into this record - that's my genuine wish.

The art/music argument is by the by. It's almost certainly an argument over taxonomy, which I don't want to get involved in. All I mean is: I see great worth in it.

I said it's art as well as music. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

If you think that music isn't capable of being art; of representing a fundamental truth about the human condition in a way that no other form can; if it just exists as another thing to do after work like switching on the X Box or the telly, then I'm not sure what to say to you.

Chrissfa: cream/best of/whatever. You think I'm gauche - maybe like Swiss Toni from the Fast Show. So what though? What's your actual point? Do you specialize in just listening to the mediocre bits of your favourite genres?

Also, the word "bore" suggests that I'm not being patronising. I say it's not for everyone. What do you want me to do? Paint you a picture?

You'd rather I wasn't open about this? Do you think liking a band should preclude a journalist from reviewing them?

As I've explained, ad nauseum on the 10/10 thread, the score isn't really that important compared to the 'analysis'.

The simple facts are this: if a critic only listens to indie then they're not going to be equipped to give any kind of view on this album other than 'Christ, this is just noise' or 'Wow, this is bonkers', and neither of those would sit well on a site as good as DiS. After all, it's not fucking gigwise.

I'm into 'extreme' music so it follows that I like the cream of extreme music. The logical conclusion of what you're saying is that you couldn't trust Sean reviewing a Shins album or Mike Diver reviewing a Rolo album or Andrzej reviewing a [insert Lukowski's favourite band here] album.

Also, I've reviewed SunnO))) many times before for Plan B, Metal Hammer, Classic Rock, Playlouder, The Quietus, Stool Pigeon, Bizarre etc. This is the first time I'm being all 'full marks' about one of their albums. (Although I was pretty close with 'Altar' their joint album with Boris. And quite rightly so in my opinion.)

In my opinion! There it is again. Tells you everything you need to know that phrase.

Team Cooper UK: I'll refer you to the part of the review where I talk about lifestyle music. Music that sounds good on the radio, music that matches your trousers, music that you associate with a computer game. Not for me. (Or rather it is for me but it's not the be all and end all.)

This is not just music this is fucking art.

The Quietus will be continuing as an independent website. More news in the next couple of weeks.

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you fucking ninny.

I didn't say that Warners have only just started distributing Sub Pop.

But quite clearly, someone somewhere, perhaps in the band, perhaps at the label level, has said 'We can have a massive hit if smooth this down a lot.' And it has back fired.

This is all I have speculated on - you may disagree if you like, it doesn't bother me.

but you're still misrepresenting what he said.

I've never supported some of PE's more fucking stupid Nation of Islam tendencies as I overtly said in the piece.

Griff was the one who overstepped 'the line' into the arena of hatred and got booted out for his troubles.

Not only does he not understand what the phrase perceived slight mean, he doesn't know what the word completely means. On top of this not only does he not know what the word innacurate (sic) means, he can't spell it either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj7f3B1VCYM

I'm yet to see what my age has got to do with anything. Your relative youthfulness hasn't made you a better writer.

I'd also like to see some direct quotes where he says he "hates" gays, Jews and feminists.

did play a new song on Sunday - it was ace.

I made that myself.

Seriously. I'm 36. I have to have some self-respect.

Do you think I should have a T-shirt on with a skeleton holding a rifle shooting at THE DEVIL?! Something rilly scary like that?

My neck is still fucked now.

SHIT AND SHINE!

Did play. Under their Gescom name but, y'know, same band innit?

is a different band to Ultravox.

I was asking for the one with the exclamation mark. (Even though John Foxx has done an ATP solo set.)

Sons and Daughters and Mum who were drafted in to replace misery guts were among the best bands to play on Slint's weekend.

As you were.

Diver is harder than me. I get home from DiS Towers and it's all like 'Sorry hon, I walked into the door frame. Again.'

Point taken.

I thought I was going to get just as badly mangled watching Beestung Lips in Notting Hill two weeks ago but luckily they just threw their isntruments at each other.

And when I think about the ruck potential at John and Jehn on Friday I'm positively shitting myself . . .

Yeah. That's right. I'm imagining the fact I spent all night in A & E waiting to see if my mate was alright after getting kicked unconscious. I'm imagining the fact that my other mate was bitching all night about how freezing cold he was.

Thing is - it was a good year for music. I saw Faith No More, Throwing Muses and The Pixies, My Bloody Valentine, Stone Roses that summer alone. Gigs in the North West were regularly very violent affairs because of the tribal nature of music fans then. I had my nose broken watching The Primitives for fuck's sake.

Anyway, I'm sorry The Courteeners or Dirty Pretty Things aren't that exciting live, but it's hardly, y'know, my fault . . .

I love this record. Especially seeing as I've got a cold.

"I feel as though maybe I saw something completely different to the reviewer?"

Well, according to particle physics - you did see something completely different to me. Also the fundamental Cartesian duality of perception could be factored in. But Envy, in my mind, were following some kind of post rock knitting pattern. Perhaps they seem more 'exotic' than Bossk for whatever reason, I don't know. I didn't even say they were bad, just that I've seen it before.

That said, not a single particle right down to all the flavours of quarks and neutrinos that make me up were in my body over seven years ago*, so maybe that's why I'm getting back into post rock. Envy sound like something I heard recently - when I was more together.

*brain included.