regardless of what you think of jay z (me=not a big fan) i think it's great that someone has thought of putting on a band/artist that breaks the usual whiteboyrawkfestivalshite hegemony.
oh and i must add that it was really impressive how you tagged the word 'cunt' onto the end of your comment MeMEmememe - really rammed the point home!
i appreciate (you obviously don't) that jay z might cater for some tastes other than mine (people do seem to like him) and that also this will make a refreshing change from the usual rock bill that dominates music festivals.
it's your basic public service model really - try to cater for all people, even those poor minorites with weird non-rawk tastes...
Hahahahaha! Kudos to marcus there, and for his words below. What a fucking surprise to see the chimps of the Drowned In Sound board riled by Jay-Z getting on the bill eh, oh deary me. It's the most interesting thing in the line-up so far by a country shagging mile, frankly.
Also, on a related note, spot the token UK-garage act on the Reading bill. Big clue, he's white and NME-approved (unlike most of his genre), so not to scare the misunderstoods & New Rock Revolution-followers.
i guess about 2 songs...possibly the beggining of the third until he's pelted offstage. i'm not into the guy either but it must take alot of balls to actually go do something like that when you know there's gonna be alot of "controversy" over it.
Yes, Jay-Z will provide a non-white alternative in a predominantly white "alternative" festival line-up. But the whole point of Reading is that it's a rock festival, dealing in rock music for people who want to go to a festival and see a lot of rock bands. Do the people who are going to Reading want to see Jay-Z?
Judging by the reaction so far, he'll go down like a cup of cold sick. But that's not 'cause people are scared of variety, or of black music. It's 'cause that's what usually happens when people ask for one thing and you give them another. It'd be like sticking ugly people in Hollyoaks.
back when it first started reading was a heavy metal/rock festival but throughout the 90s it started including more alternative/indie bands as well as well as the token hip hop/dance acts.
basically as youth subcultures and musical tastes overlap (how postmodern!) the bill has got more diverse which can only be a good thing as marcus argues above. right?
I think this is a rather regressive attitude. Firstly who's to say that people won't want to see Jay Z? I guarantee he'll have a massive crowd watching him. Secondly I think it's great that people who will normally never spend money to go see a hip hop act in a club will get a chance to see it up close in a live environment and dare I say, may find that they actually enjoy it?
You don't have to like everything out there but I think it's always good to try out new things and at least try to understand 'alien' musics a bit better. Comments like 'reading is a rock festival for rock bands' I find really depressing as it renders cultural expression as insular and exclusionary when surely its about reaching out and making connections with and between people? And anyway, just because a song doesn't have chugging riffs and 'shouty' vocals doesn't mean it can't inspire the same emotional reaction from you.
Open your minds people! I assure you, you have nothing to lose...
Fact 1. It did USED to be called "READING ROCK" or so the history books, pre-sell out to a frothy beer monopoly came in to place.
Isn't Jaz-Z the one with all his "bitches" and "bling" who spouts sexism and embraces gun culture? Or have i slipped into some kinda American Womens Club state of mind?
Not that sexism should be seen as an issue, with the majority of rock bands being sexist.
Fact 2: Surely a lot of this "rage" comes from people not having their favourite bands confirmed and that the new bands tent is representative of whatever booking agents have bands on the main stage, and never really showcases anything outside of the "new band on a major label" or "struggling 'indie' people who've been going for 10years". If the line-up was generally a lot better and wasn't a bunch of bands with a couple of "hit singles" i think people wouldn't be so annoyed by frigging Jaz-Z being on the bill.
And surely if Jaz-Z can get on the bill then there's gotta be some other hip-hop acts added, like Saul Williams, Sarah Jones and anyone but Rodney Manuva who seems to have done it every year. Ditto Black Eyed Peas.
And should this be such a shock to people? Eminem and Cypress Hill have both done it. Not that either are negro's.
I just hope this isn't diversity for diversities (sp?) sake.
Well Sean - your argument has brought up issues surrounding the nature of majors and indies (or should that read 'minors') and the dominance of certain elites within the music industry which is a very fair point.
And no doubt there are other hip-hop acts that you may deem more worthy than Jay Z. But the fact is he is a massive rap superstar and personally I'll be really intrigued to see him at Reading (as opposed to forking out £30 to see just him at Wembley Arena).
Saying that it'd be even better if I had the option to walk out half way though his set and check out El-P or Sage Francis on the new band tent - that would be ideal!
this is fuckin ridiculous.
the only actual bad thing about jay z being there is that it will be shit (i dont especially dislike him, but the sound will be inevitably entirely useless and much of the audience won't be up for it) and that, being one of the biggest rap artists in the world, he will cost a fuck of a lot of money to get him to be there.
and i hope there isnt the same situation as when eminem headlined and sunday turned into some pikey pilgrimage (it really is only a couple of miles from the centre of one of the skivviest towns in europe). not only does it create a bit of a bad atmosphere (they're/atleast were/seemed uptight about being in a muddy field surrounded by "sweaty moshers") but it makes it impossible to get around. i remember that sunday the site being packed literally as tight as the outer parts of a pit.
Come on people: surely if you don't like the line-up, you don't have to go?
I don't listen to Jay-Z, but he's gonna be there whether I like it or not. Same goes for Metallica, Linkin Park etc.
It's a MUSIC festival, not a rock festival, although rock has obviously dominated in the past, and ANYONE is entitled to go, even 'pikeys'.
The fact is that there will be something for everyone who decides to go this year, as there is every year, and all that Jay-Z's inclusion will do is diversify the audience a little more, which can't be a bad thing.
is hip-hop not fundamentally sexist? i don't think i've seen a single hip-hop video without semi-naked women in and few hip-hop artists refrain from using derogatory terms regarding women.
indie is more fundamentally sexist: probably because indie is so much MORE male dominated (in terms of fans, the industry etc) than hip-hop. anyone like khia, ms jade, trina, rah digga etc who was open about her sexuality in indie would get the fuck shouted down or dismissed as ironic.
as far as i can see the indie/rock scene isn't much better than hip hop - just look at how little participation there is from black/asians and women....
just look at the Asian music scene, so few white boys & girls involved, who'd have thought eh?
if a scene was all incluse it wouldnt' be a scene anymore
and anyway, Reading mess around with stage times and acts right to the last second, it'll be less of a shock if they stick him in th Dance tent or whatever they're calling it at the moment on one of the days, and yeah, perfect place to check him out while able to still leave and watch something else, tho i doubt i'll go anywhere near it, bitches and guns are part of my everyday life, not something i want to seek out for entertainment at a festival
i'm jus' telling it the way it is on the streets man
your opening comment is one of the most moronic things i have ever read in my life. we shouldn't let anyone else (especially not asians?!) in our little scene otherwise it wouldn't be a scene anymore!
what streets do you come from ollie - the streets of bermondsey?!?!?!?
i have to say i agree here ollie, sorry - you may have been playing devils advocate but it instead came over as a crass & ambiguous opinion....commonsense tells me you didnt quite mean it in the way it came across, but i'll let you reply and fix that..
Then again, there's one of the problems with posting on fucking message boards - half of the meaning in what you say ends up totally lost half the time, and you have to end up using sodding smilies to try and avoid the problem...
well if you really want me to explain a self explanitory line such as that I will
a scene = a group of people with something(s) in common yes? thus an 'Asian scene' (whatever that is) centers around Asian identity/culture, hence the name
so the indie scene centers around being indie, and if you class that as also being whitemiddleclassliberalmale than so be it
if you classify a the indie scene as being too white/male etc, you could equally bemoan another scene for it's exclusivity based on one set of features, the scene is what it is *because* of the exclusions as much (if not more) than because of it's inclusions. To change the membership of a group is to change the group itself, and indie scene with the groups you identity added becomes something different
see, this is the kind of post i try to aviod with short comments, this is the sort of post short comments always seem to need to clarify tho.
no one took offence to my bitches and guns thing however
and to throw around the implication that someone is a Nazi so freely really devalues it, look at the ANL for instance
'asian music' [desi/bhangra etc] is intrinsically tied up with an ethnic identity [tho obviously it doesn't mean it should be exclusively produced and consumed by an asian audience] and the cultural heritage from which it derives, to one extent or another
'indie music' is not. (if we;re gonna trace back things, back to 60s guitar bands...well, who did the rolling stones etc rip off - white fellas with guitars? nem..) The entire 4-ugly-(white)blokes-with-guitars' feature of it is not something that should be celebrated, *let alone* accepted and unchallenged. unless yr the sort of muscial neanderthal who pines for Real Music and wants to live with the decomposed rotted noelrock corpse of britpop trapped in 1997 for eternity, obviously..... That's the sort of attitude that leads to and perpetuates the dumbshit attitudes towards [eg] women in the 'indie scene' or the 'idm/electronica scene' we've got today that need tearing apart
[the ethnicity of indie bands'isnt exactly really a pressing topic in need of debate in the way the gender one is tho, i'm happy to concede..but it brings up related points..-]
going back to the point of other certain scenes though, you've the double edged sword of being labelled some cultural tourist if yr a whitemiddleclasskid who's just innocently falling in love with 2-step or bhangra or ragga or hiphop or whatever. no win. even artists fall prey to it - witness the criticisms levelled at some of the Tigerbeat6 crew for being a bunch of [by and large] white guys tucking into hiphop and pulling it into new shapes, "thieves" of black culture yadda yadda....uhh, even tho 606 is venezuelan by origin, not a white homebred american kid, but hey, what are details to some journos.....yet amongst their midst now is jayce clayton aka dj rupture who uses incredible cross-genre samples and knows his pan-continent musical history/heritage so so well, straddling race and thnicity, and its revealed so in his music. And i don't see him having a problem with them? [[the initial press for "minesweeper suite" was more of that "white kids stealing black culture" bs anyway, regardless, just cos it was on tb6..]]
i dunno. this is going round in circles a bit, its tricky to make it otherwise - we can't fix it all ourselves on our own. i still challenge the idea that other scenes eg the uk bhangra one are as deserving of criticism of that sort as the indie one may be, just due to the progeny of the respective genres - we need to put things in some context, frankly. plus, the press has mucho to answer for, which goes without saying really but shouldnt go unmentioned..
but it's not as if the indie/rock scene actively excludes women, is it ? It just so happens that people who form bands happen to be male - it's not as if there's some big music industry conspiracy against the ladies.
on the other hand, hip hop is actively sexist in the language it uses and its exploitation of women's bodies to make their videos more playable on MTV.
I believe elven was talking of sexism not homophobia, too..
Just to go back to Elven's point to back it up though - i recall when Sleeper's "delecious" came out, and OH the furore, i remember a good couple of reviews that launched into it purely for the fact it was a woman (!!) singing lines of her own that were clearly sexually direct (!!!!!! etc).
You could construct arguments around the current indie press 10 years or so on too, but i can barely be bothered to pick that rag up now, or even care about it much [and when i do it's got retarded articles on 'geezer garage' or some eejit sub-editor's proclaimed Peaches as "The Queen Of Electroclash" for an article title, so encouraging me to do so in future even less....]. So i'll leave it for someone else to do. One thought though - if Karen O hadn't got an, uh, idiosyncratic fashion sense and was sexy and sang about fucking, would there be such white-male-indie-journo [generalisation i know but..] pant-wetting?!? When i first heard "bang" on Peel over a year ago, I (1) didn't pick up on the lyrics, and (2) wasn't even aware the singer was female ----it wasn't exactly what i was concerned with anyway as i listened to my md of it lots the next few months anyway, the song itself was fucking ace [imho] which was all i cared about, primarily. which is How It Fucking Should Be. sigh....))
But then again.........you've got the IDM/electronica scene, and the underlying attitudes to women within that, that are still found there. But hey, another can of worms for another day on a less indie-specific board, no...?
The first time(s) i heard Bang i thought itwas the JSBX with a cohort, prehaps Muffin Spencer even, on vocals
can't say i'm not a little disappointed, but hey.
a brief look into my boy rock'n'roll cd filled shelves and the first disc with even a single female member is a Sonic Youth one i picket up in China a few years ago, there are more in there but i'm hardly overstocked with none predominately white male rock bands.
Is that my fault, the music industry's (aka The Man etc) or the fault of women just not puting in the effort?
Nah, there re a lot of females in indie too, just indie isn't often seen as mainstream as hip-hop. there's a pj harvey for every chris martin, a cat power for every bright eyes, an electrelane for every mogwai, a ladytron for every interpol, a suffrajetts for every miss black america, a sarah jones for every saul williams, a devics for every low, patti smith for every iggy pop, norah jones for every tom macrae, twist, sleater kinney, veruca salt, hole, the banshees.... it all depends how you look at it. there aren't as many women as men, true, but when you flick over to pop there's a lot more madonna wannabes than chubby robbie williams rip-offs.
maybe it's all down to how many women wanna do something or have the role models to drive them? rather than any kind of conspiratory ideology..
if you look at it in being able to relate to an artist, women have it much easier cus men are flooded by males, yet the few women who do get through have a lot of women who're interested in them. obviously the key is more universal, private-area boundary crossing artists.
"Nah, there re a lot of females in indie too, just indie isn't often seen as mainstream as hip-hop"
Plus there's the general masculinity of the music press [specifically - nme] to take into consideration here too, lest we forget, which has a lot to answer for over the years...
i agree tho. with who, i forget, but there was definatly a point there sumwhere where i nodded my head objectively.
there arnt as much females in alt music, but we are only comparing this to the mainstream, where women are used frequently for their seducing curves to buy in record sales. is it blatently true that there are not as many women, but mayb thats just to do with homones or sum shit like that; i no more girls who can do fanny farts better than they can play guitar, or hit sum drums, or sing. this doesn't mean the audience will be male orientated at all, and just because there are few female artists, doesn't mean there are few femms who try.(kinda contradicting myself there, but who cares?)
but where did the main point vanish to in this topic? reading is a rawk festival, i saw a banner on the net with 'reading' and a pic of a tent and beer can (hehe bacon) for christ sakes, what does this stereotype link to, i ask u? rawk festivals. if there was, included on the banner, a 'phat blingin' chain with '#1' or a mahusive mr. t medallion on it, and mayb a vibrating tit or a gun, then yes, i would condole that the festival is encouraging mainstream-rap-loving urbanite materialists to come. but please, which of these do you see in a muddy field in a tent, without some kind of heater or kashmir rug - jay-Z/[insert indie rock artist here]?
im not gonna b bothered to scroll bak to the top of this post to remember how i started, so im afraid i wont be able to force my point home with a dramatic closing statement.
it seems like a lot of the festivals are going for the "token" band effort - sticking novelty bubblegum like daphne & celeste on the reading main stage a few yrs ago, the very excellent sugababes amongst a sea of grey music at v last yr, jay-z on a predominantly "indie/rock" billing at reading this yr.
the question is not why these bands are on the bill, as why their billing is so novelty. yes, d&c were fully novelty pop; why is it strange to see a black hip-hop artist on the reading billing? personally i think jay-z's shit. however there are other hip-hop artists i'd love to see on there - and not one token honorary fucking mention - they have a dance stage, that's managed to break into the "rock" billings successfully enough, so why not branch out a bit; get a host of non-alt-establishment bands in there, let's have some really fucking great pop, hip-hop, soul, some of the dance acts that never make it to the festival billings; it exists, so let's harvest it. there are several hundred bands thrown into the festival line-ups every year, fuck knows how many at reading alone - there's room for this stuff without pushing out the rock/metal/indie. let's get some actual *representation* of other scenes - otherwise it's just sniggering, novelty 'aren't we open-minded, chaps' billing and it can stick itself.
I think quite a few people at reading will be up for a bit of hiphop, and frankly anyone complaining about it is being a bit of a humourless twat. Since when is reading 'rock only' ? what about the dance tent?
Don't think I'll be going again. ATP is the way to go as regards festivals, less lagered up twats burning toilets, less shit rock bands, no tents, no standing in the rain, more variety
If you don't like Jay-Z, DON'T WATCH HIM
If you don't like Reading, DON'T GO
Noone fucking cares. It's only a bloody festival.
It's not the RULE to like all types of music. What I've noticed is that, to some hipper than vow indie-schmindie types, if you don't pretend to like hip-hop or electro you are insatntly a twat. But, these same people actually don't know anything about hip-hop beyond what little gets in NME. Why's that? Because they only say they like hip-hop to look cool. You are not rascist or boring if you don't like hip-hop. You are not instantly cool if you do, okay? Now shut the fuck up
course it ain't the rule to like all types of music. but there again, the ppl who organise reading & other fests aren't just booking bands on the basis of who they like, either.. that being the case i think that it'd be nice if they provided something for all tastes, rather than being so token and patronising about it. it shouldn't be such a big damn deal that jay-z is playing.
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i hate music festivals with diverse bills!
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Cunt.
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oh and i must add that it was really impressive how you tagged the word 'cunt' onto the end of your comment MeMEmememe - really rammed the point home!
so ...
Erm,
Cunt?
Re: so ...
i appreciate (you obviously don't) that jay z might cater for some tastes other than mine (people do seem to like him) and that also this will make a refreshing change from the usual rock bill that dominates music festivals.
it's your basic public service model really - try to cater for all people, even those poor minorites with weird non-rawk tastes...
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Also, on a related note, spot the token UK-garage act on the Reading bill. Big clue, he's white and NME-approved (unlike most of his genre), so not to scare the misunderstoods & New Rock Revolution-followers.
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Yes, Jay-Z will provide a non-white alternative in a predominantly white "alternative" festival line-up. But the whole point of Reading is that it's a rock festival, dealing in rock music for people who want to go to a festival and see a lot of rock bands. Do the people who are going to Reading want to see Jay-Z?
Judging by the reaction so far, he'll go down like a cup of cold sick. But that's not 'cause people are scared of variety, or of black music. It's 'cause that's what usually happens when people ask for one thing and you give them another. It'd be like sticking ugly people in Hollyoaks.
Lanky.
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basically as youth subcultures and musical tastes overlap (how postmodern!) the bill has got more diverse which can only be a good thing as marcus argues above. right?
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You don't have to like everything out there but I think it's always good to try out new things and at least try to understand 'alien' musics a bit better. Comments like 'reading is a rock festival for rock bands' I find really depressing as it renders cultural expression as insular and exclusionary when surely its about reaching out and making connections with and between people? And anyway, just because a song doesn't have chugging riffs and 'shouty' vocals doesn't mean it can't inspire the same emotional reaction from you.
Open your minds people! I assure you, you have nothing to lose...
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"This is probably the smartest thing i've read on a DiS board in ages....."
ooh the irony!
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Isn't Jaz-Z the one with all his "bitches" and "bling" who spouts sexism and embraces gun culture? Or have i slipped into some kinda American Womens Club state of mind?
Not that sexism should be seen as an issue, with the majority of rock bands being sexist.
Fact 2: Surely a lot of this "rage" comes from people not having their favourite bands confirmed and that the new bands tent is representative of whatever booking agents have bands on the main stage, and never really showcases anything outside of the "new band on a major label" or "struggling 'indie' people who've been going for 10years". If the line-up was generally a lot better and wasn't a bunch of bands with a couple of "hit singles" i think people wouldn't be so annoyed by frigging Jaz-Z being on the bill.
And surely if Jaz-Z can get on the bill then there's gotta be some other hip-hop acts added, like Saul Williams, Sarah Jones and anyone but Rodney Manuva who seems to have done it every year. Ditto Black Eyed Peas.
And should this be such a shock to people? Eminem and Cypress Hill have both done it. Not that either are negro's.
I just hope this isn't diversity for diversities (sp?) sake.
Sean
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And no doubt there are other hip-hop acts that you may deem more worthy than Jay Z. But the fact is he is a massive rap superstar and personally I'll be really intrigued to see him at Reading (as opposed to forking out £30 to see just him at Wembley Arena).
Saying that it'd be even better if I had the option to walk out half way though his set and check out El-P or Sage Francis on the new band tent - that would be ideal!
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the only actual bad thing about jay z being there is that it will be shit (i dont especially dislike him, but the sound will be inevitably entirely useless and much of the audience won't be up for it) and that, being one of the biggest rap artists in the world, he will cost a fuck of a lot of money to get him to be there.
and i hope there isnt the same situation as when eminem headlined and sunday turned into some pikey pilgrimage (it really is only a couple of miles from the centre of one of the skivviest towns in europe). not only does it create a bit of a bad atmosphere (they're/atleast were/seemed uptight about being in a muddy field surrounded by "sweaty moshers") but it makes it impossible to get around. i remember that sunday the site being packed literally as tight as the outer parts of a pit.
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I don't listen to Jay-Z, but he's gonna be there whether I like it or not. Same goes for Metallica, Linkin Park etc.
It's a MUSIC festival, not a rock festival, although rock has obviously dominated in the past, and ANYONE is entitled to go, even 'pikeys'.
The fact is that there will be something for everyone who decides to go this year, as there is every year, and all that Jay-Z's inclusion will do is diversify the audience a little more, which can't be a bad thing.
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hi peaches! love you too!
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if a scene was all incluse it wouldnt' be a scene anymore
and anyway, Reading mess around with stage times and acts right to the last second, it'll be less of a shock if they stick him in th Dance tent or whatever they're calling it at the moment on one of the days, and yeah, perfect place to check him out while able to still leave and watch something else, tho i doubt i'll go anywhere near it, bitches and guns are part of my everyday life, not something i want to seek out for entertainment at a festival
i'm jus' telling it the way it is on the streets man
ollie.
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what streets do you come from ollie - the streets of bermondsey?!?!?!?
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Then again, there's one of the problems with posting on fucking message boards - half of the meaning in what you say ends up totally lost half the time, and you have to end up using sodding smilies to try and avoid the problem...
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a scene = a group of people with something(s) in common yes? thus an 'Asian scene' (whatever that is) centers around Asian identity/culture, hence the name
so the indie scene centers around being indie, and if you class that as also being whitemiddleclassliberalmale than so be it
if you classify a the indie scene as being too white/male etc, you could equally bemoan another scene for it's exclusivity based on one set of features, the scene is what it is *because* of the exclusions as much (if not more) than because of it's inclusions. To change the membership of a group is to change the group itself, and indie scene with the groups you identity added becomes something different
see, this is the kind of post i try to aviod with short comments, this is the sort of post short comments always seem to need to clarify tho.
no one took offence to my bitches and guns thing however
and to throw around the implication that someone is a Nazi so freely really devalues it, look at the ANL for instance
ollie.
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'asian music' [desi/bhangra etc] is intrinsically tied up with an ethnic identity [tho obviously it doesn't mean it should be exclusively produced and consumed by an asian audience] and the cultural heritage from which it derives, to one extent or another
'indie music' is not. (if we;re gonna trace back things, back to 60s guitar bands...well, who did the rolling stones etc rip off - white fellas with guitars? nem..) The entire 4-ugly-(white)blokes-with-guitars' feature of it is not something that should be celebrated, *let alone* accepted and unchallenged. unless yr the sort of muscial neanderthal who pines for Real Music and wants to live with the decomposed rotted noelrock corpse of britpop trapped in 1997 for eternity, obviously..... That's the sort of attitude that leads to and perpetuates the dumbshit attitudes towards [eg] women in the 'indie scene' or the 'idm/electronica scene' we've got today that need tearing apart
[the ethnicity of indie bands'isnt exactly really a pressing topic in need of debate in the way the gender one is tho, i'm happy to concede..but it brings up related points..-]
going back to the point of other certain scenes though, you've the double edged sword of being labelled some cultural tourist if yr a whitemiddleclasskid who's just innocently falling in love with 2-step or bhangra or ragga or hiphop or whatever. no win. even artists fall prey to it - witness the criticisms levelled at some of the Tigerbeat6 crew for being a bunch of [by and large] white guys tucking into hiphop and pulling it into new shapes, "thieves" of black culture yadda yadda....uhh, even tho 606 is venezuelan by origin, not a white homebred american kid, but hey, what are details to some journos.....yet amongst their midst now is jayce clayton aka dj rupture who uses incredible cross-genre samples and knows his pan-continent musical history/heritage so so well, straddling race and thnicity, and its revealed so in his music. And i don't see him having a problem with them? [[the initial press for "minesweeper suite" was more of that "white kids stealing black culture" bs anyway, regardless, just cos it was on tb6..]]
i dunno. this is going round in circles a bit, its tricky to make it otherwise - we can't fix it all ourselves on our own. i still challenge the idea that other scenes eg the uk bhangra one are as deserving of criticism of that sort as the indie one may be, just due to the progeny of the respective genres - we need to put things in some context, frankly. plus, the press has mucho to answer for, which goes without saying really but shouldnt go unmentioned..
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on the other hand, hip hop is actively sexist in the language it uses and its exploitation of women's bodies to make their videos more playable on MTV.
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Just to go back to Elven's point to back it up though - i recall when Sleeper's "delecious" came out, and OH the furore, i remember a good couple of reviews that launched into it purely for the fact it was a woman (!!) singing lines of her own that were clearly sexually direct (!!!!!! etc).
You could construct arguments around the current indie press 10 years or so on too, but i can barely be bothered to pick that rag up now, or even care about it much [and when i do it's got retarded articles on 'geezer garage' or some eejit sub-editor's proclaimed Peaches as "The Queen Of Electroclash" for an article title, so encouraging me to do so in future even less....]. So i'll leave it for someone else to do. One thought though - if Karen O hadn't got an, uh, idiosyncratic fashion sense and was sexy and sang about fucking, would there be such white-male-indie-journo [generalisation i know but..] pant-wetting?!? When i first heard "bang" on Peel over a year ago, I (1) didn't pick up on the lyrics, and (2) wasn't even aware the singer was female ----it wasn't exactly what i was concerned with anyway as i listened to my md of it lots the next few months anyway, the song itself was fucking ace [imho] which was all i cared about, primarily. which is How It Fucking Should Be. sigh....))
But then again.........you've got the IDM/electronica scene, and the underlying attitudes to women within that, that are still found there. But hey, another can of worms for another day on a less indie-specific board, no...?
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
can't say i'm not a little disappointed, but hey.
a brief look into my boy rock'n'roll cd filled shelves and the first disc with even a single female member is a Sonic Youth one i picket up in China a few years ago, there are more in there but i'm hardly overstocked with none predominately white male rock bands.
Is that my fault, the music industry's (aka The Man etc) or the fault of women just not puting in the effort?
the sex debate in a nutshell etc
ollie.
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
maybe it's all down to how many women wanna do something or have the role models to drive them? rather than any kind of conspiratory ideology..
if you look at it in being able to relate to an artist, women have it much easier cus men are flooded by males, yet the few women who do get through have a lot of women who're interested in them. obviously the key is more universal, private-area boundary crossing artists.
sean
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Plus there's the general masculinity of the music press [specifically - nme] to take into consideration here too, lest we forget, which has a lot to answer for over the years...
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
i agree tho. with who, i forget, but there was definatly a point there sumwhere where i nodded my head objectively.
there arnt as much females in alt music, but we are only comparing this to the mainstream, where women are used frequently for their seducing curves to buy in record sales. is it blatently true that there are not as many women, but mayb thats just to do with homones or sum shit like that; i no more girls who can do fanny farts better than they can play guitar, or hit sum drums, or sing. this doesn't mean the audience will be male orientated at all, and just because there are few female artists, doesn't mean there are few femms who try.(kinda contradicting myself there, but who cares?)
but where did the main point vanish to in this topic? reading is a rawk festival, i saw a banner on the net with 'reading' and a pic of a tent and beer can (hehe bacon) for christ sakes, what does this stereotype link to, i ask u? rawk festivals. if there was, included on the banner, a 'phat blingin' chain with '#1' or a mahusive mr. t medallion on it, and mayb a vibrating tit or a gun, then yes, i would condole that the festival is encouraging mainstream-rap-loving urbanite materialists to come. but please, which of these do you see in a muddy field in a tent, without some kind of heater or kashmir rug - jay-Z/[insert indie rock artist here]?
im not gonna b bothered to scroll bak to the top of this post to remember how i started, so im afraid i wont be able to force my point home with a dramatic closing statement.
mike*
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
the question is not why these bands are on the bill, as why their billing is so novelty. yes, d&c were fully novelty pop; why is it strange to see a black hip-hop artist on the reading billing? personally i think jay-z's shit. however there are other hip-hop artists i'd love to see on there - and not one token honorary fucking mention - they have a dance stage, that's managed to break into the "rock" billings successfully enough, so why not branch out a bit; get a host of non-alt-establishment bands in there, let's have some really fucking great pop, hip-hop, soul, some of the dance acts that never make it to the festival billings; it exists, so let's harvest it. there are several hundred bands thrown into the festival line-ups every year, fuck knows how many at reading alone - there's room for this stuff without pushing out the rock/metal/indie. let's get some actual *representation* of other scenes - otherwise it's just sniggering, novelty 'aren't we open-minded, chaps' billing and it can stick itself.
oo i ranted.
x
gen
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Don't think I'll be going again. ATP is the way to go as regards festivals, less lagered up twats burning toilets, less shit rock bands, no tents, no standing in the rain, more variety
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
If you don't like Jay-Z, DON'T WATCH HIM
If you don't like Reading, DON'T GO
Noone fucking cares. It's only a bloody festival.
It's not the RULE to like all types of music. What I've noticed is that, to some hipper than vow indie-schmindie types, if you don't pretend to like hip-hop or electro you are insatntly a twat. But, these same people actually don't know anything about hip-hop beyond what little gets in NME. Why's that? Because they only say they like hip-hop to look cool. You are not rascist or boring if you don't like hip-hop. You are not instantly cool if you do, okay? Now shut the fuck up
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
x
gen
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
I wouldn't be able to see him at any othertime.
Reading is filled with bands i've seen.INfact,i think i've seen ALLof the rock bands playing reading. a bitofJay-Z puts some novel;ty intothe fest.
my kepboard's space buttonsis fucked
Re: what the f uck? Reading festival...
I do despise jay-z though